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Heym SR20
26-08-2008, 21:26
I currently use a 243 - perhaps not the ideal calibre, but the left handed Heym SR20 I have fits well, shoots accurately and I have a lot of confidence in it.

I do have the space for a .30 caibre on my ticket and am thinking of getting something along the lines of 30-06 for African use / red stags etc.

But have just seen a nice left handed rifel in 6.5x55 that has got me thinking. Would you swap your current rifle that you really like for something quite similar - does the 6.5x55 do anything in the UK that you can't do with a .243, and is it really big enough to go up to plains game etc?

buckup
26-08-2008, 22:35
Hi Heym,
I was exactly your position about a year ago. Had a .243 Sauer L/Handed.
Wanted a bigger calibre for boar and posible future overseas trips, maybe Africa. As the Sauer cost a lot of hard earned, I wasn't willing to sell it at a huge loss. I decided if I was going for a bigger rifle I would get something rather larger than the 6.5 x 55.

I'm not knocking the calibre, (6.5 x 55) I wish I had brought one from the outset, but I didn't get the right advice. I'm told by one user that it has been perfectly adequate for boar and plains game

I went for the 7x64 not the 30.06 as I may at some time want to hunt in France.
If that is not an issue for you then I'd go with the 30,06.

I guess what I'm saying is, rather than a just adequate rifle I have gone down the route of two, one perfect for each job.

Enjoy the choosing process,
Mark

Muir
26-08-2008, 23:20
I am a large fan of the 30-06 but think that the 6.5x55 is a fine cartridge as well. (I have several) My brother in law was a guide at an exclusive elk hunting ranch in northern New Mexico and he used a custom 6.5x55 firing 160 grain bullets to put down elk that customers had wounded. More than once he was met with wide-eyed consternation when he showed the hapless hunter the round that dropped the bull as it ran away from them.

That being said, my favorite heavy game 30-06 load -a 220 grain RN- would have settled a wounded bulls hash just as easily.~Muir

ejg
27-08-2008, 00:20
Totally over rated caliber. Muzzle velocity with a shortish hunting barrel is very low. What good are high bc target bullets that start being good over 600yds for our kind of hunting.
How about something like a 7-08, not fancy but a good compromise and in a short action. Just compare the ballistics.

edi

Muir
27-08-2008, 01:08
I've owned both and can't see a lot of difference in a commercial action.
So why not put your faith in sectional density, not ballistic coefficient? Velocity doesn't kill game. (my four cents worth) ~Muir

Thar
27-08-2008, 04:44
Totally over rated caliber. Just compare the ballistics.


Agreed. :)

JAYB
27-08-2008, 16:16
Totally over rated caliber. Muzzle velocity with a shortish hunting barrel is very low. What good are high bc target bullets that start being good over 600yds for our kind of hunting.

edi

Edi,
I can't seem to follow what it is you are saying here, what is a shortish barrel, and who uses target bullets for hunting.

John

hunterscabin
27-08-2008, 17:43
Totally over rated caliber. Just compare the ballistics.


Agreed. :)

posibly but when you compare the entry and exit wounds on say a red deer shot @120yrds
with a 6.5x55 140grn bullet
and a 243 with a 100 grn bullet

the 6.5 has near no entry wound and a very small exit
however the 243 has a exit comparable to a large fist.

also the 6.5 has a very lage ammount of hitting power
personally i fire a 6.5x55with factory ammo and love it .
the 140 grn does everything from foxes to reds

just my thoughts

steve

ejg
29-08-2008, 00:11
Speed doesn't kill?? who said that?
energy goes up exponentially with increasing speed.
Speed is the key ingreedient of killing power.
A grain of dust takes out a sattelite, at very high speed.

Good penetration? take a bow and arrow, how does it kill?? damn slowly

What I don't like about the so called flat shooting swede is that with the quite suitable for bigger deer 140gr factory rounds only 2650 fps are achieved. 7-08 does over 2800 fps with a 145 gr. The swede has mostly slow burning powder and likes longer barrels. So subtract even more off the 2650 for your maybe 22" hunting barrel.
My friend used 156gr lapuas with his 22" ruger. Not only does this load drop like a stone but every deer just ran away. Looking at bullet channels, the bullet just didn't open right. Wrong bullet for the maybe 2400fps.

I'm not a fan of ultra high speed but the modern hunting rifle bullet on the market is designed to be used at certain speeds, not too fast and not too slow. With my 308 I'm swaying between 150gr and 165 gr at the moment.

If one goes out to buy a deer rifle.... why not buy something that is up to the job a bit better, we owe it to the deer. A bit of practice and the recoil becomes normal. My 308 is a piss to shoot with a moderator and without just grab it a bit harder.

I don't like the swede, but if I had one I'd try to get on with it.
edi

Thar
29-08-2008, 04:40
the 6.5 has near no entry wound and a very small exit
however the 243 has a exit comparable to a large fist.
steve

More bull is talked about this calibre than any other, I am with Edi on this, it produce slightly more energy than a 243 and that is were it sits in the scheme of things, it certainly is not a cartridge that can be seen as a alternative to a 30-06.

Steve in a way you have made my point for me. :lol:

A modern rifle bullet kills in two ways, hydrolastic shock and direct tissue damaged to main body organs and archeries.

A key critical factor in achieving a large amount of hydrolastic shock is having the bullet travelling at high velocity (this is one reason that the 22-250 is such an effective round.) the old swede does not produce high velocity their for it produces little hydrolastic shock compared to a 25-06 say.

To cause mass tissue damage you need a wide wound channel, the better your bullet expands (with the provision it does not break up) the wider the wound channel and the more energy is expelled into the mass of the animal. A critical component in expansion is of cause velocity, the thing the old swede does not have.

As you have pointed out you get pencil thin holes though you’re animal with little of the projectiles energy being transferred into the tissue. Little meat damage means your bullet has not produced as much tissue damage, therefore it is less effective at humanely dispatching your animal. Personally I put a humane dispatch ahead of another 3lbs of venison on the hook every day, anyway the dogs have got to eat something so it is not wasted even if it is a bit blood shot.

People bang on about what good BC and sectional density 6.5 bullets have, well it only looks good when compared to a 30cal look at the figures of a 6.4mm bullet (25cal) or 6.8mm(270) then it is not so impressive.

I have news for you a, 308 with it’s big blunt bullet will punch straight though a big red stag so why do you need a bullet with better penetration?

The 6.5X55 is not flat shooting it drops 1/3 more than a 270win at 300yrds.

My friend has a lovely Mannlicher in 6.5X55 for 5 years in a row we when to a big estate in Sept/Oct on the red stags, and almost every year he had animals run or had to shoot them 2 or more times to put them down, he tried 129gn then 140gn bullets. He then came out with me and watch me drop a big rutting stag on the spot with a 270. The following year he turned up with a 270 Tikka. I have shot with him on the range and while lamping rabbits and foxes many times and we are either equally good or bad shots. ;) Go figure.

Here’s a thought for you, in the Second World War Japan entered it using a 6.5mm cartridge with very similar performance to the 6.5x55 Swede.
and a 7.7mm(30cal) with performance close to a 303 British, guess which cartridge they were getting rid off? :shock: yep the 6.5 was being replaced with the 7.7mm round, the 6.5 lacked "stopping power".


Don’t try and use 160gn bullets up here in Scotland in your swede they are not deer legal because you need to reach a velocity of 2450fps.

I am not against the 6.5mm calibre a friend of mine has 3 a 6.5s a 260 a 6.5-284 and is now having a 6.5X47 built. Nothing wrong with the calibre just remember the swede sits between a 243 and a 7-08 in power, that is all, nothing more, use it with that in mind and don’t try and kid anybody else or yourself with BS like it “punches above it weight”, “it kills better because it bullets are moving slowly” if that is the case I will leave the 223 behind when going foxing and just use the 22 RF as it bullets are doing a 3rd the speed it will kill far better. :roll:

Now climbed down from my box. :roll:

Tahr.

Muir
29-08-2008, 05:42
So what distances are you shooting?? and at what? ~Muir

Jagare
29-08-2008, 08:16
The 6.5x55 is still very popular here in Sweden. A lot of moose are still killed with it every year. But remember that nearly all moose are shot at under 100mtrs. Its also very popular for use on the range. Its accurate, light recoil and above all cheap to shoot.
I would not have a .243 here my self as its a class 2 weapon and can only be used on roe and badger plus vermin.
Buy a .308 a much more versatile round.

Thar
29-08-2008, 12:11
Hi Jagare

I saw a post somewhere, last year I think that said in some Scandinavian countries there is talk of changing the legislation regarding the minimum calibre for Moose a min’ of 30-06 was being talked about.

Before the Deer act became Law in the UK the 22-250 was considered a good red hind round.

The Swede is light on recoil because it produces moderate muzzle energy, basic physics “for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” Down load any calibre be it 260,7-08,308,270,280 or 30-06 using a 130gn bullet to 2650fps and all will have light recoil. There are no free lunches.

Best rgds

Tahr

JAYB
29-08-2008, 14:05
Don’t try and use 160gn bullets up here in Scotland in your swede they are not deer legal because you need to reach a velocity of 2450fps.


You sure about that?

John

Baldrick
29-08-2008, 16:03
Heym SR20, I actually went the other way, starting out with a 6.5x55, chopping it in recently for a .243. I shoot fallow, muntjac and as many foxes as possible. I wanted a flat-shooting rifle, and the .243 has been a very welcome change, and certainly showing its capability with fallow. It won't often be used for reds, as I have a .30-06 for that work.

All I'm saying is that, having owned both the Swede and the .243, I found the 6.5x55 to be over-rated. I get on really well with my .243.

It's an unpopular suggestion now, but for a 'one rifle' policy, why not consider a well-moderated .270 Win? It's is a very capable round. Boar-legal and will ably cover you for any UK deer.

ejg
29-08-2008, 16:21
I think Tahr is right.
Lapua have only metric data with a 29" barrel, makes it look better.

so the 156 lapua mega does 2556 fps with a 29" barrel.
chop 7" off a slow powder caliber. We will loose more than 100fps I think.

edi

Thar
29-08-2008, 16:43
Don’t try and use 160gn bullets up here in Scotland in your swede they are not deer legal because you need to reach a velocity of 2450fps.
John

As a second source, Hornady reloading manual Sixth Edition:- With there 29” barrelled Test rifle the maximum velocity achieved (high lighted in red so do not exceed these loads) with 160gn bullets was 2300fps with 5 different powders. :???: They list no loadings that better this speed.

Best rgds

B-b

JAYB
29-08-2008, 18:14
The Lee Reloading manual second edition for 160 grain bullets for 6.5 X 55 has eight loads from 2450 up to 2506 with eight different powders.

John

Thar
29-08-2008, 20:45
The Lee Reloading manual second edition for 160 grain bullets for 6.5 X 55 has eight loads from 2450 up to 2506 with eight different powders.

John

What barrel lenght? Most Published reloading data is for at least a 24” barrel, yet most stalkers use a 22” barrel, so you would be under the legal limit using a rule of thumb of 50fps per inch of barrel. If Lee is using a 29” barrel like Hornady and Laupa then you best just turn yourself in now. :lol: :lol:

Seriously to be sure you are legal you would need to chrony your load before you took it to the hill, there again you would have to put up with near 2ft of drop at 300yrds even if it was just deer legal. :shock:

So we have gone from debating how good the 6.5X55 is compared to 308 and other commonly used deer rounds to debating whether it is deer legal by 50fps. :roll:

Best rgds

Tahr

ejg
29-08-2008, 21:37
Why buy a swede if you can buy a 308 or 270 7-08 at the same price?
Just because of maybe a tiny bruise on the shoulder?
edi

300wsm
29-08-2008, 22:06
Why not buy the thinking mans alternative to the 6.5x55 a .25-06 :lol:

jingzy
29-08-2008, 22:46
In my experience I have found the best calibre for me to be the 6.5x55. I have had a .243, 25-06, .270, .223 and a 6.5.

The .270 did drop beasts on the spot, but it was very damaging on the carcass and not the nicest calibre to shoot.

I found that the 25-06 dropped roe efficiently beyond 140 yards with a gameking 117gr. Under this distance and certainly below 100 yards, deer could run on quite easily.

.243, roe deer can run on with 100gr bullet, with a 80gr I found that they dropped quicker. I wouldn't use it on reds in the woods, but would on the hill, but expect them to run on unless you are neck shooting. Shot a red in the rut in the engine room and it was running for about 80 yards, shot it again in the same area, opposite side. It ran on another 50 yards and went down. Got to it and it was still pi55ed off. Coupe de grace. Opened him up and the lungs were in bits and there was no heart. 2 X perfect shots. It was enough to make me never use a .243 on a stag again.

.223, yes they drop deer, but I wouldn't use one again. Just personal choice.

6.5, Every roe I have shot has dropped on the spot. Every red has dropped within 5 yards of impact except for a hind that was watchig me for about 20 seconds before I shot her. She ran between 15 and 20 yards whilst full of adrenaline. I have also used the .308 but for me the 6.5 is the most comfortable hard hitting round about. It is inherintly (if you spell it that way) :lol: accurate. Also, if it is that bad a calibre why have so many elk and moose been taken!

To answer the original question. If you were going to shoot most species of deer in the UK, then the 6.5 is the answer. There has also been comment on the trajectory...... My 6.5 shoots 1.3" high at 100yds. At 170yds it is spot on and at 240 to 250 yds it is 6" low. If you cant shoot a deer in this country at these ranges, then you should give up.

J

hunterscabin
29-08-2008, 23:25
In my experience I have found the best calibre for me to be the 6.5x55. I have had a .243, 25-06, .270, .223 and a 6.5.

The .270 did drop beasts on the spot, but it was very damaging on the carcass and not the nicest calibre to shoot.

I found that the 25-06 dropped roe efficiently beyond 140 yards with a gameking 117gr. Under this distance and certainly below 100 yards, deer could run on quite easily.

.243, roe deer can run on with 100gr bullet, with a 80gr I found that they dropped quicker. I wouldn't use it on reds in the woods, but would on the hill, but expect them to run on unless you are neck shooting. Shot a red in the rut in the engine room and it was running for about 80 yards, shot it again in the same area, opposite side. It ran on another 50 yards and went down. Got to it and it was still pi55ed off. Coupe de grace. Opened him up and the lungs were in bits and there was no heart. 2 X perfect shots. It was enough to make me never use a .243 on a stag again.

.223, yes they drop deer, but I wouldn't use one again. Just personal choice.

6.5, Every roe I have shot has dropped on the spot. Every red has dropped within 5 yards of impact except for a hind that was watchig me for about 20 seconds before I shot her. She ran between 15 and 20 yards whilst full of adrenaline. I have also used the .308 but for me the 6.5 is the most comfortable hard hitting round about. It is inherintly (if you spell it that way) :lol: accurate. Also, if it is that bad a calibre why have so many elk and moose been taken!

To answer the original question. If you were going to shoot most species of deer in the UK, then the 6.5 is the answer. There has also been comment on the trajectory...... My 6.5 shoots 1.3" high at 100yds. At 170yds it is spot on and at 240 to 250 yds it is 6" low. If you cant shoot a deer in this country at these ranges, then you should give up.

J


i have to agree to every thing which you have said

the 6.5x55 is a cracking round.


but what i must advise is you buy a rifle to suit your individual needs
what ever they be



steve

Thar
29-08-2008, 23:47
There has also been comment on the trajectory...... My 6.5 shoots 1.3" high at 100yds. At 170yds it is spot on and at 240 to 250 yds it is 6" low. If you cant shoot a deer in this country at these ranges, then you should give up.
J

270:-using a 130gn sst Hornady Zeroed at 200yrs 1.1" high at 100yrds 2.2" low at 250yrs................the 6.5 has dropped nearly 2/3 more than the 270. :roll:

Put the cross hairs on the heart pull the trigger what could be easier at all reasonable stalking ranges?

270 with a moddy on is a pussy cat to shoot, without it is no problem to me and I don't carry much padding (fat). ;)

Heart total destroyed with the 243, sounds like it did a good job (not that a 243 would be my first choice for Red stags, although I have drop 8 pointer Sika stags with mine I would not reach for it as a first choice.) do you think that your 6.5 would do a better job? My friends did a worse job.

As for meat damage read my previous post. :???:

Best rgds

Tahr

300wsm
30-08-2008, 06:24
Interestingly I found the 117gr Gamekings in the .25-06 to be very poor performers, but once I switched to BTs I have never looked back.

mack
30-08-2008, 08:45
.308 Win. Why bother with anything else, really?

swampy
30-08-2008, 08:58
over the years we have done this one to death. but, it's still a good thread! the 30-06 sprg. is head and shoulders above the 6.5 x 55 in performance. using 165 gr bullets it is good for close to 3000 fps. that is a serious amount of power. double that with a bonded soft point bullet you get lots and lots of energy transfer it is as flat shooting as you want. At that speed you may find more damage with a balistic tip bullet but thats part of the deal.

i load my 30-06 with some 165gr btsp bullets from midway. because it is a big calibre does not make it more damaging to smaller deer carcasses. the bullets expand in a controlled manner in 10 inches of muntjac at the same rate as in 2ft of red deer. there is such ******** talked about "overkill" too much rifle...... in my view dead is dead. there is no change from dead.

my current first choice for woodland stalking is my 7mm08. i use 145gr soft points in that. they have a high sd and bc and kill very well.... but this is loaded with a compressed 50 gr of reloader 19 (book of 2900ish) but from the 18 inch barrel probably 2800. if a short action round is required then this is a good choice.

so would i swap my 30-06 or 7mm for a 6.5? no chance. would i swap my 243 for a 6.5? no chance... i would keep the 243 and shoot fox with it and buy a 7mm, if the equation had to include plains game i would keep the 243 for foxing and buy a .30-06 and shoot 200 gr partitions in africa and 165 gr in the uk.

JC43 advised me to buy the .30-06. it was good advice

swampy

ejg
30-08-2008, 11:45
Well said swampy,
one point one always forgets is why where so many moose shot with the 6.5 in sweden since 100 years??? They had nothing else, that is the reason, they had no choice. Just like in germany the 8x57 is popular, well they had a lot of em after the war. America had a lot of 30-06 left over.

The swede is quite popular here in Ireland , why ? well they say it kills better than a 22 cal, but that's it. For decades deer had to be hunted with 22 cal by law, then they allowed 243 and 6.5. 6.5 was king for a while because nothing bigger was allowed. Now 30 cal is accepted and very popular.

I am convinced that if all those moose hunters in the last 100 years would have had the choice between 6.5x55 and 3006 more than half would have prefered the bigger caliber.
edi

Thar
30-08-2008, 12:18
Well said swampy,
one point one always forgets is why where so many moose shot with the 6.5 in sweden since 100 years??? They had nothing else, that is the reason, they had no choice.

I am convinced that if all those moose hunters in the last 100 years would have had the choice between 6.5x55 and 3006 more than half would have prefered the bigger caliber.
edi

Very true.

The other point is that I have read that Moose are easily killed (soft), pound for pound a red or heaven for bid a Sika would be far tougher animal. :shock:

Best rgds

Tahr

Davie
30-08-2008, 17:50
The 6.5 is a far superior round to the 243 and will make a fool of the .270 . I have had all three and shot a lot of deer with all and for me the 6.5 knocks spots off similar calibres it also fires a 70 grn head and will also fire a 168 grn head what other calibre has this wide a difference in bullets ;) . My shooting ranges are of the normal type eg 50 mtr to 200 and at these distances the 6.5 will match and exceed the .270 that Thar uses
I have in front of me a stalking book and it has a ballistics table in it made up by three well known factory ammo makers.

243/ 100GRN 25 YARDS 50 100 150 200

- 0.9 -0.2 0 -0.9 -2.9


6 .5 /140 GRN -0.7 .02 0 -1.0 -2.3



270 / 130 GRN -0.8 -0.3 0 - 0.8 -2.7

This hopefully will tell you why the 6.5 is very popular it is hitting animals harder with a heavier projectile than the 270 and is alot flatter. it also is 40 % heavier than the 243 and yet is still holding a flatter line than the smaller faster cal.

Table made up by parker hale norma and rigby

ejg
30-08-2008, 18:21
That might be if we switch off the law of gravity, the law of energy and ballistic laws.
edi

swampy
30-08-2008, 20:22
This is purely a data exercise and it should be born in mind that both calibres are deer legal and have both taken a lot of deer of the years. i have looked at data for these rounds. i used data from hodgdons reloading data for velocities and in both chamberings i have used the highest available in a bullet that i can get the BC easily for. i used hornadies ballistic calculator to work it out and give ballistics.

the top one is 6.5 with 140s

mzl--------------100-----------------200-------------300----------- ------vel-------------vel----en------vel----en----dr----vel---en dr 2700................2521.....1976.....2349..1715.. .4.......2183..1482.14.2 .

270 with 130s

3085...............2846......2344....2626..1990... 2.8.....2413..1681.10.6

270 with 140s

2979..............2785.......2410....2599..2099..3 .........2420..1820.11.1

so we can show using this data that a 270 win is flatter shooting. and delivers higher energy than a 6.5 using the classic 130gr and a 140 gr load.

however like i said at the beginning both are deer legal calibres and both have taken many many deer. the 270 uses 60 gr of powder plus . the 6.5 uses 50.

swampy

Thar
30-08-2008, 21:19
Hi 6.5X55

Your data is worth less with out Muzzle velocity, barrel lengths and bullet type/BC.

Hornady Data:- with top line reloads (do not exceed). all zeroed at 100yrds, all using the same type of bullet:- Hornady SST, to give a true reflection of each calibre.

243, barrel length 24", 100gn bullet, drop at 200yrds= 3.2", drop at 300yrs =12"

25-06 barrel length 24" 117gn bullet, drop at 200yrds= 3.1", drop at 300yrds= 11.6"

6.5X55 barrel length 29" 129gn bullet, drop at 200yrds= 4.1", drop at 300yrs= 14.7

270 barrel length 24" 130gn bullet, drop at 200yrds=2.7, drop at 300yrds 10.2".

So despite having a barrel 5” longer than the rest it still has more drop than any other and over a 1/3rd more than 270. :shock:

Face the facts the 6.5X55 is slightly more powerful than the 243 and a bit behind the 7-08, it is not even in the same class as the 270 or other 06 based rounds which really being a long action cartridge is were it should be.

As for harder hitting I nearly feel of my chair laughing, :lol: both using 140gn bullets 270 with 24” barrel 2800lbs muzzle energy , 6.5 with 29” barrel 2100lbs muzzle energy.

Yep Like Edi says you are right if you turn the ballistic tables upside down then the 6.5 is harder hitting.
:roll:

It does not mean it is not an adequate deer round, for roe and hinds ect but for the big stuff I would look for something better which is pretty much anthing else but a 243. :twisted: :D

Best rgds

Tahr

Davie
30-08-2008, 21:38
Thar this is not my data and unlike others i put up factory ammo because they do not push the boundaries. Now we all know we can add a dash of this and that and end up with fantastic results . But this was a tread that asked would you swap a .243 for a 6.5 for me there is no question that the 6.5 leaves the 243 well in its shadow and is the true aLL round rifle.
If you don't like the data i put up then the people to see are norma parker hale etc. But for me any one can mix and match to get data to do what suits theM for me its always about the true facts.
PS IF THE 6.5 WAS SHOOTING THE SAME WEIGHT BULLET AS THE .270 THE DIFFERNCE IN THE TWO CALIBRES WOULD BE FANTASTIC AND WOULD MAKE THE 6.5 AN EVEN GREATER WINNER. ;)

Davie
30-08-2008, 22:03
ps data taken Roedeer management and stalking (page 175 ) Appendix 2 .
none were taken at 300 yards but i am sure if you like that type of stalking then there are calibres out there that would make all of standard calibres null and void.

VELOCITY FPS @ 200

MUZZEL 243 = 3070 2540

MUZZEL 6.5 = 2845 2533

MUZZEL 270 = 3140 2639



ENERGY FT POUNDS @ 200

MUZZEL 243 = 2090 1430

MUZZEL 6.5 = 2512 1978

MUZZEL 270 = 2847 2011

Thar
30-08-2008, 22:24
But for me any one can mix and match to get data to do what suits then for me its always about the true facts.:
All my data was from the same Source (Hornday) that was the whole point of me posting it, I did not mix and match anything in fact if I was being generous to the 6.5 as I should of really knock some velocity of for it having a 29” barrel. How much fairer do you want to be? Just because they are not what you would like to see does not make them untrue.

The 6.5X55 has a case capacity of 3.68 the 270 a capacity of 4.24 but just as importantly the 270 has a safe operating pressure of 65,000psi the 6.5 is 52,000psi.

So with less case capacity and lower maximum pressure limit how is it scientifically possible for the 6.5 to out perform the 270?

Science, objective evidence, facts. Not wife tails.



PS IF THE 6.5 WAS SHOOTING THE SAME WEIGHT BULLET AS THE .270 THE DIFFERNCE IN THE TWO CALIBRES WOULD BE FANTASTIC AND WOULD MAKE THE 6.5 AN EVEN GREATER WINNER. ;)

Did you actually read my posts? In one post the 6.5 was using a 129gn and the 270 130gn sorry that 1gn would make you 6.5 bullet fly flatter so helping you.

In the next post both bullets are 140gn?

And shouting does not change things.

Would I swap a 243 for a 6.5X55 No. Would I swap a 6.5X55 for a 243 No. If you feel the need for a more powerful cartridge then look at a 7-08, 308, 270, 30-06 all are proven rounds on large deer that can be used on boar should you wish.

Best rgds

Tahr

ezzy6.5
30-08-2008, 22:37
Hi all,

Well i don't own a chrono or balistic software but i have had a 308, 270, and now i own a 6.5. ive shot deer with all of them.
I wouldn't sell a good 243 to buy a 6.5 as i feel there a bit to similar.
if you can buy a 30 cal then thats the answer, then your covered, regardlus of what a 6.5 will kill, lots of people will not want you using one on big game. Yes the 270 was very flat and bloody great on foxes at big ranges. mod on so no probs with recoil. the 308 was good but i didnt like the rifle. I have found the 6.5 a good calibre and will keep mine, if i was culling reds at 300+ then perhaps i'd consider going back to 270.
I sold my 270 because it was a single shot and i wanted a dedicated lefty, a nice 6.5 came up so i bought it, if it had been any mid size deer legal rifle i still would have bought it.

Ezzy.

Thar
30-08-2008, 22:44
VELOCITY FPS @ 200

MUZZEL 243 = 3070 2540

MUZZEL 6.5 = 2845 2533

MUZZEL 270 = 3140 2639



ENERGY FT POUNDS @ 200

MUZZEL 243 = 2090 1430

MUZZEL 6.5 = 2512 1978

MUZZEL 270 = 2847 2011

Totally meaning less without bullet weights, bullet BCs and barrel lengths, and you try and accuse me of bending data?

I use probably the largest sporting bullet manufactures data with a fully equipped laboratory with the latest pressure measuring equipment.

You find some data in a deer stalking book.

OK to achieve that velocity:- What type of powder? How many gains? What was the chamber pressure in PIS or CUP? Ect

Back your post with more data.

Best rgds

Tahr

charadam
30-08-2008, 23:39
Why are you trying to make me feel bad or doubtful about my selected calibre?

I chose 6.5x55 after playing around with a number of others over the years.

I'm sticking to it.

Goodnight.

ejg
31-08-2008, 00:40
Charadam, I don't think anyone is trying to make anyone feel bad.
More just trying to rectify wrong data being presented. No matter which caliber one uses one should adjust the stalking accordingly. If one has to take out large deer close to houses with a 223 one chooses shot placement accordingly.
I'd go stalking with a swede no problem, but bullet choice is so much more crutial than with the 308.
edi

Jagare
31-08-2008, 07:51
Thar, about 2 years ago in Sweden the goverment put forward a proposal to ban all lead in ammunition. This was pushed by the Greens and Left wing who were in coalition with the goverment.
The shooting press, industry, svenska Jagareforbundet and many others pointed out that having to use a alternative material for bullets would mean that any calibre under 7mm would not meet the requirements for a class one weapon. ie: a weapon for shooting big game.
Much testing was done of copper bullets and the like. They were found to be unstable in the heavier bullet weights in any calibre smaller than 7mm. The copper bullet were more likley to fragment and cause injury to the animal being hunted. Also this would make the cost of practice ammo so expensive that nobody would bother with that any more.
At the last election the goverment lost and a more conservative goverment got in to power. The proposed lead ban was kick out ( till a suitable alternative can be founfd for lead) And a bit of common sence has come into the Wolf debate.

Thar
31-08-2008, 10:05
Why are you trying to make me feel bad or doubtful about my selected calibre?


It is not about making anybody feel bad, I don’t think anybody who already has a swede will change it because of this or other posts, but it is about informing people about the true ballistic capabilities of the cartridge, armed with this information a stalker can decide with this calibre is the one for him.

The trouble is people talk BS about this round for some reason, like:- it punches above it weight, it slow moving bullet kills better, it shots flatter than any other cartridge ect. You never see comments like these made about other cartridges irrespective of there true performance, people stick to it real ballistic capabilities.

The original poster asked if he should swap his 243 for a 6.5X55 or get a 6.5X55 instead of a 30 cal which he has a slot for on his FAC. he then asks about the suitability for shooting African plains game with each. My point is that there are more suitable cartridges for large deer and plains game than the 6.5X55.

Best rgds

Tahr

Davie
31-08-2008, 10:17
Thar says totally useless with out bullet weights and i am sure if he had read my post properly the weights had been put up .Then on request i place the other information asked for useless he say why because they don't match hornady's or they make a fool of his data :shock: .
Now not all of us home load in fact less than 20% of deerstalkers home load so lets keep it as simple as we can. Now here is the chart in its entirety if you don't like the data don't use home loading as it don't mean ****.
You ask how a smaller caliber can out perform a larger one i will leave that to science. As i think you should do so your data to over 80 % of Deerstalkers is of no importance. It would be better left on the long distance sites were the majority of shots would exceed that of normal deerstalkers. I quote Redmists data. Most deerstalkers shoot no more than 150 even on open hill and the few that do very rarely exceed 200. The most common distance is 100 yards.http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/Deerstalker_2006/chartforthar.jpg It seems that Thar has a real hate of the 6.5 reason i have no idea but he dose seem to jump on every post that asks for information on it and by the looks of it has never owned one but hey (his mates have :lol: :lol:

Thar
31-08-2008, 10:52
6.5X55

The your data is flawed, firstly it is not drawn from a single Source it is a pick and mix from 3 different manufactures, secondly the figures for the 6.5x55 are not valid, I think Richard in his old age or his publisher have made a typo’ 139gn bullet doing 2900fps sounds like a 7-08 to me.

To get a 2900fps from a 140gn 6.5mm bullet you need to look at a 6.5-06 cartridge not even a 6.5-284 achieves these velocities, so you best tell all them “F class” shooters to not bother with there custom rifles in 6.5-284 as they have wasted their money as a 6.5X55 is far flatter shooting. :D

Seeing you only use Factory ammo I looked up some figures for you, from 3 of the biggest ammunition manufactures, unfortunately on average the 6.5X55 velocities are worse than the figures I use from the home loaded data.

All using 140gn bullets.

Federal muzzle velocity 2650fps, Hornady 2525fps and Winchester 2550fps.

So there you have it if you are using factory ammo then that is what you have, 300 to 400fps less than your data.

"Science" I will stick with it if than is OK. :roll: Basic physics:- “you can’t get a quart out of a pint” or turn a "pigs ear into a silk purse." :twisted: :-D :-D :-D

Best rgds

Tahr

swampy
31-08-2008, 10:53
6.5
when i gathered my data for the 6.5 i used hornadies ballistic calculator and hodgdons data. just the same for the 270. none of my data is squed one way or another. iused the fastest load for each using a similar pointed soft point bullet. it is a good job i didn't use the data for .270 with the barnes bullets, they are a good 100 fps faster. if that data says the envelope is being pushed it is being pushed for both calibres. whilst this doen't need to turn into a peeing contest the facts are plain to see. you spoke about using bullets of the same wieght..... i did i looked at 140 gr bullets in both calibres and found out to 300m i found quite clearly that the .270 is flattershooting and carries more energy to the target. please read my post

JAYB
31-08-2008, 10:55
Thar, I think it is safe to say that you are no great fan of the Swede, and have gone to great lengths to produce statistics to prove your point, to your way of thinking. Whilst 6.5X55 has produced figures which disprove yours, to his way of thinking. All that proves is that you can produce a lot of figures to prove any point you want, to my way of thinking. :shock:

What cannot really be argued against is practical application in the field, you have had Muir tell you of his brother in law, a professional Elk guide, using a Swede and using it to good effect. Jingzy and Hunters Cabin have told you of their exploits with it and their satisfaction with it's performance. I use mine on Sika and the furthest I have ever had a stag run is about 15 yards. I have had hinds turned completely upside down by it, her feet appearing in the scope where her back should have been. I have shot Sika hinds with my .243 and never had that happen, does not mean that it couldn't just never happened to me. You told us about your friend on the hill who always had to shoot a Red Stag twice to put them down, and yet you managed to drop them on the spot with your .270. Not wishing to doubt your friends ability but, a 6,5 with a suitable bullet not dropping a Red Stag for five years on the trot does seem to me to be a terrible run of bad luck. I know people up here in the Highlands who have used a 243 for 30 plus years on Red Stags and never had any bother. I also know people up here who have used a lot smaller calibre and not had that sort of trouble ;)

The bottom line is the Swede is popular because it is effective, as is the 243, 270, 30-06 and all the rest of them, why, because they are effective. The argument about the relevant ballistics could go on forever and never prove anything. The only facts worthy of consideration here, is whether or not the round is effective, does it do the job humanely, our primary concern is for our quarry. Therefore if it works for you then it is the right tool. That is why your friend got rid of his in favour of a 270, which I presume worked for him.

My answer to the question is would I change a 243 for a 6.5, is still the same, yes I would. I just love those long slender bullets with the superb SD :-D

John

Claret_Dabbler
31-08-2008, 12:26
Great debate lads. Some good points raised, and some important issues missed.

First off, currently I only have one deer legal rifle - a 270win. This certainly gets the job done on all UK and Irish deer and has whacked a few wild boar for me also. The 270 can push a 140gr bullet to 3000FPS. This performance comes at the price of noticeable recoil and muzzle blast. Certainly performance of this nature is more than is required, or maybe even desired, for the majority of UK and Irish stalking.

Important point - bullet contruction. The Swede earned it's very good reputation when bullets of the old fashioned cup and core design were all that was available. A big soft, slow 150-160gr bullet at 2400-2600fps will open up to give a very reliable wound and good killing power.

However, to try and compare this 6.5x55 preformance to to 270 load listed above, particularly for trajectory is laughable.

Who actually zero's their rifle to be dead on at 100m? Zero the above 140gr 270win load 1.5" high at 100m and you are good to 230-240m.

My criticism of the Swede is that it is an old fashioned design. It is intended to work in long barreled military rifles. It has a very long throat - for 160gr bullets, it burns slow powder, preformance is compromised with a short barrel, and low operating pressures..

If you want to run a Swede against a 270win, I would not start with a Swede at all. Look at a 260rem, with a short modern chamber. Load it with 120gr Accubonds or 125gr Partitons. Chamber it in a modern rifle at 58-60K psi. Then run it against a 270win.

If fact, I am about to put my money where my keyboard is and do exactly that. What I hope to achieve is near 270win performance with near 243win recoil and noise in a rifle that can be efficiently mod'ed.

To answer the orignal question, I would not drop the 243 for the Swede. I would handload the 243 with the best bullets I could get and buy a 30cal.

Davie
31-08-2008, 12:32
Swampy i did read you post as i read Thar,s post and all the replies of people that hate the 6.5 are putting it against the .270 .When that calibre was not in the equation earlier . Now i have shot a lot of deer and hundreds with the .270 with 130 grn Heads and is was a very capable rifle of that there is no doubt. I have shot the .243 with 100grn heads and did not like what it did to the deer and i did not like the distance they ran if the shot was not bang on the money. I have shot a lot of Deer with my 6.5 129 GRN and i have only had it 2-3 years it has shot the biggest wild stag most of us are ever likely to see in britain and the deer dropped to a rib shot. It has shot many extremely large stags and many many bucks. In my opinion it knocks them over which is what this is about far better than a .243 with less wastage and is equal to if not better at killing than the .270 with less of a kick its a trade off and i am afraid the 243 and the .270 imho loose out at both ends.

PS IF THE PAGE FROM THE DEERSTALKING BOOK IS PRINTED WRONG THEN I WILL APOLGISE FOR PUTTING IT UP AND ASK ANYONE READING THIS BOOK TO DISREGARD THIS PAGE UNTIL IT IS PROVEN.

Thar
31-08-2008, 12:34
John

My views as to liking the cartridge or not are totally irrelevant, it is ballistic data, objectify evaluated that make the case or not for it. The truth is out there, if you will take your head out the sand and accept it. :-D

The ballistic are there to prove my point that while a useable cartridge the 6.5X55 is not as powerful as most other cartridges nor more importantly as some owners delude themselves in to beleieving. You see one set of data from an obscure source for ballistics that I can find no data to back up and you proclaim it as the truth, totally ignoring data from several well respected ammunition manufactures posted by myself and others.

My friend shot a number of stags over a 5 year period before he came to the conclusion he was unhappy with it’s performance, anecdotal evidence maybe, but backed by science. So far he is happy with his 270 but I am sure he would have been equally happy with a 30-06 or 280 ect. The shot placement was analysed in the larder afterwards (as always) and shot placement seemed fine (heart lung chest shots).

The SD of the 6.5 is not that special compared to a 6.4(25 cal) or 6.8(270) am I repeating myself? :roll: Maybe I should shout and it will sink in. :-D

The world is round by the way. :twisted: :-D :-D :-D

Best rgds

Tahr












One thing I will conceded is that I am of the firm opinion, that the most important calibre in stalking is the calibre of the man behind the butt. ;)

ezzy6.5
31-08-2008, 14:21
This has drifted a bit, if we are saying the 270 is better because its flatter and faster then fair enough but if it's all about speed and trajectory why aren't we all shooting 300 win mags or 338 lap mags they are both hard hitting flat calibres. perhaps some of us want just enough gun, but i think it was confucius who said not to use a cannon to kill a mosqito.
Personally i like the sweede for deer and i like the 223 for foxes it seems just right for what i need. i could get something faster or flatter but in 10 years i've only shot a handfull of foxes past 250.

swampy
31-08-2008, 14:41
6.5
i don't have a problem with any calibre etc.

i tried to explain that both are decent cartridges but the 270 has better performance but at the cost of 10 gr of powder. i am sorry if you construed it as a personal attack but that was not the case at all.

hell i shoot 243, 7mm08 and 30-06. there are some good and bad points to all of them but i am not going to dispute data that is good

Thar
31-08-2008, 15:26
Ezzzy 6.5

At last a 6.5X55 owner who talks sense and gets my point, the Swede is not the fastest or hardest hitting, but if you know this and you either work within it’s limitations, or the type of stalking/quarry you do does not need any more then all is well. :)

I use my 243 as my roe rifle, I accept it’s limitations and work within these, I have dropped big stags on spot with it but I don’t make it my first choice for this job I pick something bigger.

Best rgds

Tahr

JAYB
31-08-2008, 15:42
[quote="Thar"]John


You see one set of data from an obscure source for ballistics that I can find no data to back up and you proclaim it as the truth, totally ignoring data from several well respected ammunition manufactures posted by myself and others.



quote]

The obscure set of data that I posted came from the Lee reloading manual second edition, who reprint loading data supplied by Hodgdon powders, VV and other notable obscure people. Hodgon in their own reloading data have seven loads for a 270 ranging from 2884 up to 3025 fps with pressures ranging from 48100 CUP up to 51000 CUP. In the same they also have seven loads for the Swede ranging from 2493 to 2651 fps and 45700 CUP to 4600 CUP. Both sets of figures are 140 grain bullet, I do not know how long the barrel was but you have to assume it was the same for both rounds. Now bearing in mind the age of the Swede and the fact that powder manufacturers keep loads light because of the elderly chambers and the weakness of these early rifles, it is easy to see why the difference in pressures.

However modern day manufacturing techniques have greatly improved the strength of theses chambers, therefore by increasing the loads to suit modern day manufacturing, and putting everybody on a level playing field, it would not be difficult to "improve" matters. Not that they need it.

Ken Waters managed to get the 160 gr RN to above deer legal limits for Scotland, using a Winchester model 70 with a 22 inch barrel.

I read it whilst I was having a ride on the round world :shock:

I'm happy with my head in the sand, there are worse places ;)

John

JAYB
31-08-2008, 16:10
I have just noticed Claret Dabblers post, sorry Brian, and he has highlighted a very important point. When Remington introduced the 260 in 1997, they did it in order to standardise a lot of the 6.5 wildcats that were being played with at the time.. They therefore got the best of the 6.5 being ballistically similar, the inherent accuracy and low recoil combined with the benefits of modern stronger actions, which meant higher pressures and much more competitive ballistics.

Having said that I can load my modern 6.5, with it's stronger modern action, hotter than the advertised loading figures. SAAMI decided these figures should be adhered to for the 6.5 because of all the old Krag-Jorgenson rifles still in existence.

Hope this helps.

John

Highlander
31-08-2008, 17:08
Have used a 30-06 for many years on all deer species in the uk, and a 6.5x55 for several.

The 30-06 is without doubt a stand out (some would argue "alone) as a single calibre do it all UK, European (if you put aside the military calibre exclusions) and African plains game rifle.

The 6.5 is a great calibre, and has accounted for a good number of red.

The 30-06, recoil aside, gives a lot more lee way if required. Even remembering accuracy is all!, misjudgements can/do/and will happen.

And African game "fight" well above their weight, as others have already given you, umpteen ballistics.

I suspect your original question was not related to the above 30-06 vs 6.5x55, but thought I would add to the debate on the merits of the two calibres!

Back to your original question a .243 for a 6.5x55 - if you shoot a significant number of foxes stick with the .243 without a doubt. If you use it for mainly roe, munties, chinese, (roe being the obvious, unless you are in a non typical deer population) and you are happy/confident in the calibre again stick with your current .243. If woodland fallow are predominant, personally I would favour a 6.55, but remember accuracy is all!!

However, if it is just that itch that we all have to scratch with respect to calibres, then scratch it!, a 120g ballistic tip 6.5 is just as lethal as 70g ballistic tipped .243 on a fox.

Thar
31-08-2008, 17:25
[quote="JAYB"][quote="Thar"]John


You see one set of data from an obscure source for ballistics that I can find no data to back up and you proclaim it as the truth,
[quote]

John the data I was referring to was the data posted by "6.5X55" posting that it was possable to get nearly 2900fps with a 140gn bullet from a Swede. Your data for a 140gn bullet being 2650fps for the Swede and 3025fps for the 270 seem fair. ;)

As the moderator for the reloading section on here would you advocate reloading a swede or any other cartridge above the recommended safe maximum levels set out in any respected reloading manual?

Even if you were to reload you 6.5 to the max’ in your modern rifle you would still have a 10gn powder less in your case, so you may close the gap but you still would not be able to match the 270 ballistics. Then of course we could throw the reloading manual away for the 270 and no doubt open that gap up a bit. ;)

Best rgds

Tahr

JAYB
31-08-2008, 18:49
I'm not advocating that anyone should should load any round too hot for their rifle, what I am pointing out is that the loads in the majority of reloading manuals are set with the old Krag-Jorgenson rifles with their weaker actions in mind. This is obviously a safety feature designed for those that shoot the older rifles. What I am saying is that modern 6.5's built with stronger actions can take a stronger load and still be safe.

The load development for your own rifle depends on you, your level of experience and your rifle. All reloaders know that what is safe in your rifle may very well be unsafe in another, it is tailored for your own rifle. I thought I made it clear why an above maximum load would be acceptable in this round and under what circumstances. It was for this round and not any other cartridge as you are inferring.

I tried to make this clear when drawing attention to Claret Dabblers post about the 260. The bullets are not so different ballistically but with a stronger modern action, able to accommodate higher pressures. If you wish to load your 270 above the recommended levels that is entirely up to you, but I would not recommend it as I am not aware of any significant manufacturing changes since it's inception.

I still stand by my answer to the original question would I change a 243 for a 6.5,yes I would. ;)

John

Thar
31-08-2008, 20:15
What I am saying is that modern 6.5's built with stronger actions can take a stronger load and still be safe.

this round and not any other cartridge as you are inferring.

Do I take that as a yes for 6.5X55 then?



I would not recommend it as I am not aware of any significant manufacturing changes since it's inception.
John

I think steel and manufacturing tolerances have generally improved a bit in the last 80 years, so they might be a little room for improvement. But if I wanted a more powerful cartridge I would just buy one it would be it far safer and more convenient.

If you want your 6.5 to perform like a 270 why not just buy a 270? Logical?

Somebody in the States did just as you advocated because he had a Remmington 700, starting with the normal max’ load for the 6.5 swede he managed to work up loads using the 140gn Winchester soft points to a heady speed of 2700fps with a 22” barrel. :oops:

Of course that is not really so surprising as although you have upped the pressure in your chamber you have forgotten that the data posted at the lower pressure was for a 29” barrel not a more normal 22” barrel on a stalking rifle. :D

To be fair he said that lighter bullets did better. ;)

But look what happens when reloading goes wrong (OK he did use a Blaser)

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb114/bambi-basher/blaser_09_web_01.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb114/bambi-basher/BLASER1.jpg

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Best rgds

Tahr

jingzy
31-08-2008, 22:51
Thar,

it seems that you are unable to let this go. .270 is not the best solution, there have been some excellent arguements for and against all calibres, but I think that your mate has just increased his calibre choice due to his inability to shoot accurately. There is masses of information out there on different calibres and their interior and exterior ballistics, but the 6.5 is renouned for its knock down power.

This is an excellent thread, but it is not far from turning into a personal debate. JAYB is correct in that the 6.5x55 can be loaded above some manufacturers max charges, but that is only because we know that the older 6.5's couldn't put up with the pressure. We also know that the manufacturers would be wrong to put in the higher loads just in case a new reloader was to take it for granted that the loads were safe.

The vhit reloading guides have increased their max loads this year, why? I dont know but maybe it is something to do with progress. The pictures that you put on the site.... :shock: Did it say what loads he was producing before the action gave way. He may have been 5 to 10 gr above the max!

Anyway, enough said. There are too many posts worldwide on the internet and on this thread to ignore the wonderfull 6.5. :lol: :lol:

Davie
01-09-2008, 09:19
See it seems we have went away from the original thread and got into what is THARS zone that is to hate a calibre :-P I heard some one say that the .243 is the most popular calibre for Deerstalking and for me while it is not up to the job of shooting the big lads it might be worth taking a look at the police for creating a situation of .243 is best. In Scotland the most popular calibres for stalking are 308 270 then 243 the 6.5 is a bit of a new lad here as most Scots will just take whats on the shelf.
The cops up here will issue you with an open licence from the out set and if you have good size deer ground you get what calibre YOU want. Most will get a small rifle eg .222 .223 and a larger calibre 270 308 6.5

The cops down south will try and keep the new lads on the lowest calibre they can and even make it part of the criteria for owning a deer rifle they must go out with a stalker for months years etc and to try and change to a different calibre can meet with full checks and long complicated conversations.
After spending what can be 1000,s on equipment it is no wounder most toe the company line and say ( I LOVE MY .243 )
Just an opinion on why the 243 is top down south.

JAYB
01-09-2008, 10:50
Thar. I do believe enough has been said about this without starting to repeat ourselves I would just like to clear up one or two things that have been said that appear to misrepresent me and my attitude towards loading for the 6.5

JAYB wrote:
What I am saying is that modern 6.5's built with stronger actions can take a stronger load and still be safe.

this round and not any other cartridge as you are inferring.


This has been very neatly edited out and taken completely out of context, if you read it in its entirety then it is patently obvious that I am not suggesting that anybody should load their rifle to what could be dangerous levels irrespective of the warnings in manuals. I said in certain circumstances, which included your experience and your rifle and I included the caveat regarding the disparities between different rifles, the 6.5 could be loaded hotter than advertised.

You say if I want my rifle to perform like a 270, buy one. I don’t want my rifle to perform like a 270 I want it to perform like a 6.5.

Right from the start I have stuck to the question concerning 243 and 6.5, you introduced the 270 into the mix. You make it sound as if comparing a 270 (64mm case) with the 6.5 (55mm) and then finding the 270 has more oomph is news. It has a bigger engine, more power, but to my way of thinking so what? It does not diminish the attributes of the 6.5 at all. What rounds do you actually load and what speeds are you getting from them?

I have seen those Blaser blow up photo’s before some time ago, but I cannot remember the details. You say that he achieved this by loading his rounds too hot, the heady speed of 2700 fps, well the Lee reloading manual second edition gives seven loads for a 140 gr bullet with seven different powders for 2700 and better. Now I realise that the industry standard 24” barrel would have been used for these loads and your Blaser man was using a 22” barrel, but come on there has to be a fair bit of human error involved here. As you are, I take it, an experienced loader would you not agree that he may have overlooked one or two things on his way to his accident. As jingzy said what was he doing prior to the accident?

I still hold fast to my original answer would I change a 243 for a 6.5, yes I would. The ability to load from 70 gr to 160 gr would be enough on its to sway me.

John

buck52
01-09-2008, 13:28
My criticism of the Swede is that it is an old fashioned design. It is intended to work in long barreled military rifles. It has a very long throat - for 160gr bullets, it burns slow powder, preformance is compromised with a short barrel, and low operating pressures..

Mmmmm, not true these days, you are right, it was originaly designed around a 160 grn fMJ and used as standard issue by the Swiss Army for killing humans.

Today the story is different, my mate has one that has a border barrel and it is designed to stabalise a 129 grain most efficiently. It is very accurate as well.

Another mate has one (Sauer) and he has just started reloading his with 100 grn bullets, it poleaxes Red on the spot and there is no significant damage to Roe either.

Would I change a .243 for a 6.5x55, yep I sure would & did.

This is a good healthy thread, dont let it go downhill.

Regards

Thar
01-09-2008, 14:06
if you read it in its entirety then it is patently obvious that I am not suggesting that anybody should load their rifle to what could be dangerous levels irrespective of the warnings in manuals.

so do not load above the manual max'.


I said in certain circumstances, which included your experience and your rifle and I included the caveat regarding the disparities between different rifles, the 6.5 could be loaded hotter than advertised.
.

So do load above the manual max'.

Which is it?



Right from the start I have stuck to the question concerning 243 and 6.5, you introduced the 270 into the mix.


And totally ignored the second part of the question regarding should I get one instead of a 30cal, and what about African plain game?


The 6.5 is a far superior round to the 243 and will make a fool of the .270 .

My shooting ranges are of the normal type eg 50 mtr to 200 and at these distances the 6.5 will match and exceed the .270 that Thar uses

This hopefully will tell you why the 6.5 is very popular it is hitting animals harder with a heavier projectile than the 270 and is alot flatter.


John it became a 270 v Swede debate because of the following misinformed post by “6.5X55” even you must admit that it contains errors.



You make it sound as if comparing a 270 (64mm case) with the 6.5 (55mm) and then finding the 270 has more oomph is news. It has a bigger engine, more power, but to my way of thinking so what
.

Yes that was my point, a 55mm case cartridge Will not be able to perform as well as any calibre based on a 64mm (30-06) cartridge. you have seen the light. :lol:

I am using 4831short cut at the minute, 56gn with Norma cases CCI primers and Hornady 130gn SST bullets this is giving me 2975fps with a 22 barrel and .75” accuracy, before that I was using RL-19 59gn these was giving me 2983fps. I have used Hornady factory loaded LMs in it and these were doing 3100fps which is in line with a top line reload from a 22” barrel. All checked over my chrony.

I have some Magnum primers which I want to give a try as I have read that high pressure cartridges with large powder capacities these can work well with magnum primers. What do you think?




I have seen those Blaser blow up photo’s before some time ago, but I cannot remember the details. You say that he achieved this by loading his rounds too hot, the heady speed of 2700 fps,
.

John the photo’s are totally unconnected with guy in the USA loading his Remmington 700 6.5X55 to 2700fps, there is a clue in there Blaser/Remmington.

I believe that he say the rifle failed because it was faulty, Blaser say it was because he used a over pressure home load. Posted just as a reminder of what can happen in extreme circumstances.



I still hold fast to my original answer would I change a 243 for a 6.5, yes I would. The ability to load from 70 gr to 160 gr would be enough on its to sway me.
John

The fact that bullets are available in 70 to 160gn bullet does not mean that your rifle will shoot all these accurately because of the twist rate in your barrel will only suit some of these bullet weights, I should not have to remind you of this.

So second part of the question; 6.5mm or 30cal with African plains game in mind?

PS I don’t hate the 6.5x55 but do acknowledge its limitations; I hope my posts have high lighted these to the less well informed. To some, of cause, the owners “Love is Blind”.

Best rgds

Tahr

Highlander
01-09-2008, 16:50
I wonder if you feel you have had your original question answered adequately, particularly having had 5 pages of responses??!! :roll:

JAYB
01-09-2008, 17:21
Thar,

You amaze me, you pick little bits of posts in isolation and then comment on them, your not a journalist are you? I didn't ignore the second part of the question, but I have no experience of shooting plains game, I only know what I have read about it, so as I do not know I could not comment. I have read of people shooting plains game with a 6.5 but cannot comment with certainty.

I cannot understand why you will not accept that the loads listed for the Swede are, in the interest of safety, because of the older less reliable actions. You keep on about 29" barrels but what powder manufacturers use a 29" barrel for their load development, I don't know any. You maintain that the advertised loads should be reduced by 50 fps per inch because they are intended for longer barrels. Surely the opposite is true if we adopt your criteria. The loads are tested for a 24" barrel therefore we should add an extra 250 fps to compensate for the extra five inches of barrel, no?


You persistently try to put words in my mouth with regard to strong loads for the Swede, why? I have explained my thinking on it and yet you keep on.

No one is denying that the 270 is a bigger hitter, but that does not mean that the 6.5 is not up to the job. You continually make reference to loads developed for older less capable actions, you seem to me to be blinkered on this. Modern technology has improved the round by improving the actions. The Remington 260 is proof of this. I have not seen the light regarding case size, it never was an issue, the issue was you saying that it would not be legal for Deer in Scotland with a 160 gr bullet.

I can't comment about 6.5's post, you had better take that up with him. As for your Remington/Blaser comments and photo's the relevance of those is wasted on me I'm afraid. Why mock a round that is doing 2700 fps, not fast enough for you? and showing photo's of someone who has pushed his rifle to breaking point why, we know what happens when you get it wrong.

I didn't say my rifle would fire all of the rounds in the range quoted I said the 6.5 had the ability to to have them loaded.

I am fully aware of my rifles limitations, for each rifle I own, and I only entered the debate in the interest of others less enlightened, as you so rightly pointed out, when you started on about all the bull talked about this round. Well, that is your opinion mine happens to be that it is a proven game rifle, has plenty of knockdown power and gets the job done better than a 243 and nothing you have said has made me think differently.

John

Davie
01-09-2008, 17:33
I will post my reply with regards my posts the stats were taken out of a stalking book written by Ritchard prior a well know deerstalker and if anyone else has the book Roe Deer management and stalking. PAGE 175 IF IT IS A MISS PRINT THEN HEY WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES EVEN THE GREAT MAN HIM SELF.

Little Terry
01-09-2008, 17:50
I once shot a running bull moose with my 6.5x55 Blaser r93.

130-150 yds 156 grain Norma Oryx. He went about 15 yds and dropped like a stone.

I use this bullet for everything from Beavers through Muntjac, roe and fallow up to the aforementioned Moose and Wildboar.

The Moose incident was only a one-off for me, but I have never wanted to swap mine for anything else. The only time I have had problems has been completely down to crap shooting.

To answer the original question:
As far as swapping from a .243 to a 6.5x55 goes, only do it if you are not happy with the .243 I would say. I hear lots of good reports on the .243 and it sounds pretty versatile. I would only swap if it was inadequate for what i wanted to shoot or if i had some money burning a hole. Then I would probably go for something a bit further removed in terms of capabilities, like a 9.3x62 or .375 H&H.

Have a look at these other threads for more 6.5 info:
http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1254&highlight=
http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=744&highlight=

Good luck with the decision - you'll need it judging by all the comments above! :???: :-D

Thar
01-09-2008, 20:06
6.5X55
Thank you for your last post, and I respect you for it, yes I have the book. As my old boss used to say “the man you never made a mistake never made fecking anything” :lol:

Terry
Good advice.

John
I will keep this first post short and address your other issues after we close this question.
If I am a journalist you are a slippery at avoiding a direct question as any politician. So in my best Jeremy Paxman style.

Do you advocate not sticking to the maximum recommended powder levels posted in respectable reloading manual for the 6.5X55 if you have a modern rifle?

Just a straight YES or NO.


Latter

Tahr

Claret_Dabbler
01-09-2008, 21:54
My criticism of the Swede is that it is an old fashioned design. It is intended to work in long barreled military rifles. It has a very long throat - for 160gr bullets, it burns slow powder, preformance is compromised with a short barrel, and low operating pressures..

Mmmmm, not true these days, you are right, it was originaly designed around a 160 grn fMJ and used as standard issue by the Swiss Army for killing humans.

Today the story is different, my mate has one that has a border barrel and it is designed to stabalise a 129 grain most efficiently. It is very accurate as well.

Another mate has one (Sauer) and he has just started reloading his with 100 grn bullets, it poleaxes Red on the spot and there is no significant damage to Roe either.

Would I change a .243 for a 6.5x55, yep I sure would & did.

This is a good healthy thread, dont let it go downhill.

Regards

Buck, no doubt a 6.5x55 can easily be made to outperform the loading books - with a short chambered custom barrel and handloads - you pal has a Border barrel.

You can also reasonably safely handload a modern factory barrel to out pace factory ammo.

But if a guy is shooting factory ammo in a factory rifle - ballistics are limited.

jingzy
01-09-2008, 22:53
It is I am sure a .243 and 6.5 debate is it not!

I have just sold my .243. Why? Because the 6.5 is in my opinion more versatile. It is a good solid performer and with 120gr sierras, I can flatten anything n this country. :lol:

J

charadam
01-09-2008, 23:35
Nothing I have read here thus far has made me regret my choice of the 6.5x55.

Don't mean this to be provocative, but I shot, read and studied a great deal before deciding - but I can still respect another viewpoint that can validate claims made.

My rifle is modern and the manufacturer has proofed the action to modern pressures, well above those tolerable by an 1896 original.

I have an enlightened approach to reloading - I just want the bullet to hit , consistently, where I intend, with sufficient energy to - a) kill humanely and b) kill legally - in Britain.

Therefore, I approach pressure maximums with caution - and I have a chronograph.

Energy is not all. Velocity is not all. I also shoot MH and Snider - now there are terminal ballistics! 500 grains of soft lead at 1240 fps stings a bit!

At the other end of the calibre spectrum, my .17 HMR with its tiny bullet and its middling velocity does what I want it to do to its reasonable quarry.

So, a calibre I am happy and confident with and that tends to support accurate shot placement due to middling felt recoil, a bullet whose SD and terminal ballistics I am happy with, all I need now is something to shoot at!

I think what I am really saying , is .................

Goodnight.

Tikka 260
01-09-2008, 23:56
Hmmmm , well I might as well add my tuppence worth. I rebarreled a Tikka 595 in .243 to .260... ( modern 6.5x55) , and I have a 6.5x55 custom rifle. Both use homeloads , nowhere near advertised maximums. They use different weight bullets for different purposes and exceed expectations at their alloted task. I think that answers the question in the thread.

I've used a .270 and a 30-06 and wouldn't give either house room , all that flash bang wallop to no discernible advantage for my particular type of shooting. However , if thats your choice then go for it.

Hence my signature .

T260

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Muir
02-09-2008, 06:20
Were anyone to think it worth the effort, there could be new data for the 6.5x55 that would exceed the original data. This is nothing new.

The 45-70 is an excellent example. All US ammo makers and almost all reloading manuals list loads that do not exceed black powder pressures for the Trapdoor Springfield rifles. With time and stronger rifles, new data came about for the Marlin Lever Actions, the Ruger Single Shot, and the raft of custom bolt guns built on Mausers. Reloaders now had loads fit for the design of their rifles.

The venerable and excellent 257 Roberts cartridges were sold in "standard" and "+P" loadings. (Extra power) This because of the variety of rifle designs chambered for it.

The old 32 WCF (32-20) was sold in one configuration for rifle, and then another less-powerful version for handguns.

The 38 Special pistol cartridge is offered in standard and +P loadings, as is loading data for the round in deference to the different guns available for it.

An owner of a Winchester Model 1895 in 30-06, or a Remington Rollingblock Rifle in 7x57 had better recognize that he (or she) had best not load to modern SAAMI specs unless they want their gun to come apart.
Conversely, a person with a Siamese Mauser 45-70 can certainly exceed listed data for the Trapdoor Springfield if they have the knowledge and expertise needed to do the job scientifically and safely.

I shoot a Smith and Wesson 1926 2nd Hand Ejector in 44 Special with strict adherence to the loading manual data. I have no problem however, loading those same cartridges to maximum and shooting them in my Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum because the gun is considerably more robust.

All this being said, reloaders must remember that the cartridge case is the weak link in the reloading chain. They almost always give a nano-second before the weapon does. Still, to take a modern made case -one whose capacity exceeds the 260 Remington - and saddle it with 44 CUP pressures is shame. I'd like to see new, rifle specific data for the 6.5x55.

Lastly. Debating the virtues of a 6.5x55 V/S a 270 is silly. It's oranges and apples. A good man with a 6.5 will kill what he shoots at. I own eight 6.5x55's and don't dote on any of them but, when I reach for one, it will be because I know it will kill the game I am shooting at and at the distance I choose to squeeze the trigger from. In that regard, it has not failed me yet.~Muir

300wsm
02-09-2008, 08:57
From what I have seen with the 6.5x55 on large deer even with well placed shots the deer run too far for my liking and the fact you want to shoot plains game you would be better off with a .30cal than 6.5x55

Davie
02-09-2008, 09:15
How fars to far 300WSM i have seen loads shot with the 6.5 x 55 and i have shot many large stags my self. The keeper i go to up north uses a 6.5 x 55 sako for all his work and swears buy it. For me it is a real stopper leaving most or all its energy in the beast not out the back side .
With regards plains game that up to the lads that do it i don't have the cash or the inclination to travel to Africa to shoot large animals i cant eat. ;)

JAYB
02-09-2008, 09:41
Thar,
I don't know what your problem is, or what corner you are trying to push me into, but I will do my best to answer your question again. I cannot answer this yes or no, it is not a black or white area it is grey. As I said before, and you as a reloader must understand this, each and every rifle is different what is safe in one is not safe in another.

You, apparently, will not accept that the reloading data supplied in manuals relates to the early less reliable actions, they have to otherwise loading an older rifle to modern specs could lead to an accident, and that in turn to litigation.

Therefore your question could be answered both ways, no I would not suggest that a novice reloader strays from the information contained in the manual, on the other hand an experienced reloader COULD make up loads hotter than those advertised. It is not unusual to read on reloading websites where reloaders have loads that are above maximum, but always with the warning that it is only safe in their rifle. As an aside I never load above the recommended loads, I have no need to the round works fine for me as it is.

I don't know how else to answer you. In my opinion it is not a closed question and cannot be answered yes or no.

John

willie_gunn
02-09-2008, 10:12
Having followed this (and a couple of other threads) over the last couple of days, and not in any way wanting to stifle healthy discussion, I thought this article might be worth a look:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/caliber_worship.htm

To summarise - all calibers do just about the same thing, it's all about how you use them.

willie_gunn

Heym SR20
02-09-2008, 11:08
Well I didn't expect the debate to run on six pages - I have been away a few days and just reading through all the posts there is clearly a lively debate. Didn't somebody ask recently why we have so many different calibres - we have now found out the answer - it is to give rifle shooters a topic of conversation!!

Thanks for everybody's input.

I think the consensus is:


1) Because I am happy with my .243 stick with it - accuarate, flat shooting and powerful enough

2) 6.5 x 55 is a very good calibre - shoots bigger and longer bullets than the .243 and is thus a bit more flexible for the bigger stuff, but is still a bit on the light side for African bigger game. It is an old calibre and thus most factory ammo is loaded to lower pressures for old rifles (as is the 7x57 etc). But using Norma and or careful handloading it can be made to shoot quite fast.

Good ballistic coefficients mean that it does not shed velocity, thus is pretty flat shooting even if it only starts off with 2,600 fps - also has excellent penetration.

3) All legal calibres shoot plenty flat enough to pretty much guarantee that provided you zero between 1 and 2inchs high at 100 yds, you don't have to worry about distance and thus bullet drop out to 200 yds - centre cross hair on boiler room of deer, squeeze trigger and deer will recieve bullet in boiler room and is on its way to the larder.

But with a flat shooting 243 - it is easier to hit smaller targets such as foxes.

4) Killing Power - I think we are all agreed that a high velocity expanding bullet through the heart / lungs of a deer of whatever species has a terminal effect - and that terminal effect is a matter of seconds rather than minutes.

The difference seems to be whether the beast is knocked off its feet at the shot or runs a few / 10s of yards at the shot - and this is more critical in the woods than on the hill - even a beast running 10 yards in the woods can be difficult to find.

I don't think it is a matter of muzzle energy per se, nor of velocity - it is more how that is translated at the animal.

Bigger and slower bullets seem to hit with more of a thump and thus knock a beast down where it will kick and bleed out for a few seconds. Slower bullets tend not to expand as much, nor cause as big damage and exit wound.

Smaller and faster bullets seem to penetrate without necessarily knocking the beast over, but then expnad and cause a much bigger wound channel.

It is probably the same effect as recoil - compare a fast snappy calibre - say lightweight 20 with heavy cartridges to an 10 bore - the former is painful and uncomfortable, but the latter just gives you a big push backwards.

But there does seem to be a view that in the .243, 80 gn bullets seem to act quicker than 100 gn bullets - is this something to do with the 80gn expending all their energy in the beast, rather than 100gn punching through with still quite a bit of energy to expend elsewhere?? And the same is seen across all calibres - big heavy for clibre bullets penetrate well, light bullets expand and stop rapidly.

But at the end of the day any animal hit in the right place will be dead very quickly, whereas even a large calibre hitting in the wrong place will mean a wounded beast.

Consider that we are arguing between 2,000 ft, lbs and 3,000 ft lbs of muzzle energy - probably 1,000 to 1,500 ftlbs by the time it hits a 100 kg beast - whereas African hunters only have a mx of 5,000 ftlbs to flatten a 1,000kg buffalo which has a pretty ugly temperamnet to match.

My Decision:

I think I am going to stick with the .243 and ultimately pair it up with a .30 calibre, large 7mm (7x64 or RM) or possibly even bigger when funds allow.

But if I was building my amoury again from scratch I would probably start off with a 6.5 x55 as opposed to the .243.

But obviously every body's own rifle and calibre is the best you can possibly have and if there were dinosours still running around would be more than adequate for shooting these at ranges of several miles.

Thanks again for every body's input

Heym SR20

300wsm
02-09-2008, 11:24
Heym

6 pages of lively debate very well summarised into 1 post.

Little Terry
02-09-2008, 11:29
Heym

6 pages of lively debate very well summarised into 1 post.

Agreed. Well done.

Thar
02-09-2008, 13:43
Heym

I believe your decision is the right one. :-D

John

I wanted a yes or no so we had a definitive on your position before I debated the issues around loading your 6.5X55 hotter. There would be no attempt at anything personal if that was your concern, I will assume you class yourself as an experienced homeloader so for you that is a yes then?

Seeing that Heym20 has made his choice does he wish us to continue the debate? Or shall we start a new topic around some of the issues raise in this post? As I still have a few things to clarify with John and other points to raise :twisted:

Over to you Heym20/John.

But remember as I posted 2 pages earlier. ;)




One thing I will conceded is that I am of the firm opinion, that the most important calibre in stalking is the calibre of the man behind the butt. ;)

Latter I hope

Tahr

Grantoliver
02-09-2008, 14:58
hi

JAYB
02-09-2008, 15:04
Heym, that is a very succinct post, how we never sorted that out pages ago is beyond me, but at least we keep everybody thinking.

Thar, I don't know about you but I am sick to death of this post. Heym has come to a conclusion, which if we had anything to do with it is a minor miracle in itself, I think it is time this one was put to bed. I almost hesitate to say this but, raise your new topics and we shall see what mayhem we can cause then :-D

John

Davie
02-09-2008, 17:54
May i come in here as i am just off the vit vuri page and a statement made earlier with regards smaller engines not producing higher power i feel might be well off the mark . But again the vit site might be well out of date and the editor might have been one Richard Prior. So here we go my mate !Has just got a 6.5 284 and when he looked at the stats he says it out performs the .270 now i might be wrong but i checked and it did and it has a smaller bullet and a smaller case slightly.
I also have shot a 270 wsm it looked very much a smaller case than the .270 i have but i was told it out shot it with a smaller case so if? this is true then just like cars smaller engines can well out perform larger ones.

If this is to far away from the deerstalking we love just pull the thread :-P :-P

Heym SR20
02-09-2008, 18:10
Grant,

I will give those federal 80 grainers a go on the Roe, am currently using 100 gn RWS. What are they like on hinds, although technically and legally they are too small. But then statistically 50% of 100 gn bullets will also be below the 100 gn minimum allowed in Scotland.

By the way the 6.5x55 rifle that whetted my appetite and thus sparked the debate is a Medwell & Perret custom rifle coming up for auction in the forthcoming Holts auction - http://213.219.62.57/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=1021++++1104+&refno=+++19643&saletype=

Nice looking rifle, particularly if there were not many bidders!

Thar
02-09-2008, 18:59
So here we go my mate !Has just got a 6.5 284 and when he looked at the stats he says it out performs the .270 now i might be wrong but i checked and it did and it has a smaller bullet and a smaller case slightly.

If this is to far away from the deerstalking we love just pull the thread :-P :-P

I was going to let this topic drop but as "6.5X55" is back and not letting go oh well.

6.5X55 not trying to get this post pulled before I could put you right are you?

Using your data from the Vit' site gives max’ data for the 6.5-284 using 139gn bullet with a 26” barrel achieving velocity of nearly 3000fps.

There is lots of data available for the 270 using 140gn bullet with a 24” barrel achieving velocity of 3000fps.

So one rifle has a 24 barrel one has a 26 barrel both the same velocity now tell us all which is the most powerful? :roll:

PS I have 3 mates that use 6.5X284 ;)

Heaven help me, you think educating kids is hard. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yes you are wrong. :twisted:

Tahr

300wsm
02-09-2008, 19:45
6.5,

A 270WSM case has approximately 12% more case capacity than a 270win.

A 6.5-284 also has approximately 12% more case capacity than a 6.5x55

A 6.5-284 has the same case capacity of the 270win

The 6.5-284, 270wsm and 270 win all have a much greater safe maximum chamber pressure than the 6.5x55

Now gents discussion is one thing but please everyone keep it civil.

Thar
02-09-2008, 21:08
Sorry WSM :oops: :oops:

Sometimes I feel like I am banging my head against a wall :cry: ,

We will not mention the internal ballistics yet.

Best rgds

Tahr

Grantoliver
02-09-2008, 21:48
Dont mean to be shallow Heym, but I have just had a look at that link and I think you ought to forget all this nonsense about calibres and buy it. Its very pretty. :lol:

ejg
03-09-2008, 10:03
I still can't believe what I'm reading here, how can one recomend a 6.5 swede ? It might be OK for a very good shot who has had one for years and has learned to use it. Maybe it has something to do with old traditions in certain countries where winging is part of the sport so that the dog has something to do. I believe in right and wrong, the swede is in the long run the wrong caliber for large deer. Even the Speer manual does not recomend (with their stronger loadings) it for Elk and moose. In possibly the most known German Hunting Rifle book (Eduard Kettner) the swede is not even mentioned, well I think it is not worth mentioning. It is a military round which might be ok for human sized targets but too small for large deer and too big for vermin. Even a few stronger calibers than the 6.5x55 are noted as being marginal for red deer. This book is used for the German hunting training and one can then clearly see the position that is taken for which caliber. World-wide ?? I think only a few hardliners left who defend the 6.5 swede, and a discussion always ends up with being told to forget about physics, mathematics and ballistics.
Anyway one looks at it, the swede is marginal and if you show up with it in most places in this world you will be frowned upon or even not allowed to use it. Get a real rifle.
edi
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x264/ejg223/DSCN1827.jpg

smullery
03-09-2008, 13:56
Well, I've found my 6.5 x 55 with 156 gr Norma Oryx perfectly adequate against Roe, Impala, Springbok, Mountain Reedbuck, Gemsbok, Kudu, Red Hartebeest, Blue Wildebeest.

Not had an exit wound on the big stuff but the bullet has fully expanded and got as far as the skin on the exit side.

If I feel I need more I move upto my 9.3 x 62 with 286 gr.

Been shooting for 17 months now and enjoyed four trips to South Africa and many a weekend in Scotland.

Stan

Jagare
03-09-2008, 15:28
EJG , Of all the posts on this thread yours must be the biggest load of twaddle. In the latest Norma cataloge they show 5 loadings in 6.5x55. 2 for use on roe and 3 suitable for moose. Like the .243 the 6.5 is suitable to shoot all British deer species. Its true that the 6.5 is popular in Sweden because it is a old military round. But it is still very popular as a hunting round as well. You need to look at the new rifles in 6.5 at my local gun shop.
No we don't use a 6.5 to wing a animal so we can track it with a dog.
We have dogs because it ethical to track a wounded beast. A thing that more "stalkers" in England should think about.

Davie
03-09-2008, 16:40
I agree with that for some reason a lot of British stalkers don't have dogs is it because they never miss wound or they use a special bullet that never finds a clear path through . :lol:

ejg
03-09-2008, 16:43
Ok Jagare, so whatever the governments opinion is, is the right one. or?
I live in a country where the legal requirement is a 22-250 for red deer,
is that a caliber that you would recomend? I wouldn't.
If you shoot anything larger than a roe in germany with a 243 you loose you licence.
Who is right? I know for a fact that a slightly larger caliber with a slightly higher velocity than the bespoke marginal caliber will put an animal out of it's misery a bit quicker. It just has a bit more killing power.
It makes no difference when purchasing a rifle, so why not get the one that is world wide recognized as being able.
Not every deer stalker is as skilled as many on this forum. They will need all the help they can get.
edi

Jagare
03-09-2008, 17:49
.243 is a class 2 weapon here. Roe badger and vermin. Reason we have moose and wild boar. The 6.5 is a very accurate low recoil round very suitable for the novice stalker. It will kill all deer species in the UK punkt slut.

Davie
03-09-2008, 18:42
Any body want to buy a 6.5 as this thread has put me off it i am going to buy my self a .243 and join the cause ;)

Jagare
03-09-2008, 20:56
6.5x55 don.t give up hope yet. Just read in Jakt och Jagare of the hunter who shot a 250kg bear with one shot from a 6.5. Don't know how he could have managed it with such a under powered, unsuitable rifle like that. Bet he wished he had a more powerfull weapon. ;)

Thar
03-09-2008, 21:22
Any body want to buy a 6.5 as this thread has put me off it i am going to buy my self a .243 and join the cause ;) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just run you 6.5X55 on 100gn bullets and it's performance will be almost same as a 243. ;)

Best rgds

Tahr

jingzy
03-09-2008, 21:51
EJG,
I had to read your thread a couple of times, boy, I would love some of what you are on. The swede is one of the most recognised hard hitters in the stalking community. :shock:

The reason that the Americans dont recognise it, is basically because they did not invent it. :roll:

I had a little look at your picture book and I see that the mighty .270 winchester is also not recognised for shooting large deer :shock: :shock: . I would suggest that it is possibly a poor forgery or the author was completely out to lunch. :lol: :lol:

As for the swede, it is renouned in inter-galactic circles that it is one of the best knock em down rounds. Indeed, last week I had a visitor from 2 galaxies away wanting to purchase my mannlicher. ;) I had to turn him down because he had a thermo-nuclear inter-continental war head, 2 particle guns, 4 gold ingots and 50 used .243's. The only thing that put me off was the .243's. But as he would not keep them, the deal was off. :lol: :lol:

Pity really, I could have had an awsome stalk with the war-head, 70% of Scotlands deer with one shot!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Davie
04-09-2008, 09:24
Jagare don't worry mate i have been shooting a long time and know that it takes more than a fast 100grn to take out a large animal like a red stag in the rut or a massive stag from the south. When i want an animal down i reach for my slow 6.5 because it dose the job better than most. ;)


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/Deerstalker_2006/25pointstagJPG2.jpg


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/Deerstalker_2006/FORBLOB.jpg

Heym SR20
04-09-2008, 09:29
Is this becoming one of the longest discussions on this site???

Clearly the 6.5x55 is a very good all round calibre - mostly I suspect from the quality and penetration of its long for calibre bullets - especialy the 156 gn. And it built its reputation in the early part of last century along with the 30-06, 303 and 7x57.

The .243 is younger, albeit probably 50 years old and from its outset was designed as a dual purpose varmint and deer calibre. Enough deer in Europe and the US have been dispatched to the happy browsing place in the sky to show that it works and works well.

And there are eneough of them around that on more than one occasion they have been used on much larger beasts - American Elk, Kudu etc etc.

I think the last word should go to Walter Dalrymle Maitland "Karamojo" Bell who used his 7x57 with 173 gn solid bullets to shoot over 1,000 elephants and I quote

"I have never been able to appreciate "shock" as applied to killing game. It seems to me that you cannot hope to kil an elephant weighing six tons by "shock" unless you hit him with a field gun. And yet nearly all writers advocate the use of large bores as the "shock" the firer more, but I fail to see the difference they are going to make to the recipient of the bullet ........... Wounded non-vitally he will go just as far and be just as savage with 500 grains of lead as with 200. And 100 grains in the right place are as good as ten million."


Thus I think the key to all this is that provided you use a bullet and can place it in the vitals, and that bullet can penetrate through the vitals then the beast is dead. One calibre may slightly speed up the process, but the end result is pretty certain.

Now for an easier topic - which are better - blonds, brunettes or red heads!!!![/i] Take cover for the incoming

Grantoliver
04-09-2008, 09:37
Hi 6.5 x 55.

The question I would like to ask you is would you take your 6.5 out of the cabinet with a large deer such as red as your intended quarry.

Since this thread started getting a little heated I have looked some ballistic tables and can see that the calibre should certainly be capable of doing the job but I am unsure as to whether it would be my calibre of choice for large deer. I would be interested to know how many members only have one calibre and are not in the position of being able to reach for a larger calibre if thought necessary.

Grant

300wsm
04-09-2008, 10:03
I have never had a problem with using my .243 and 70 BT's to shoot large lowland red stags.

Davie
04-09-2008, 10:14
Grant i have had 3006 and 270 also the smaller .222 and used a 223 a lot i did own a 243 but like i said it was not up to the job.
Now with hand on heart i can say that the 6.5 in a cabinet of all the calibres above would be the first i would pick up to take out stalking woodland stags of the size you see in the picture . Now they are of the biggest body mass anyone will shoot in this island of our. ;)
My reason is that the bullet makeup is such that the energy is transferred to the flesh of the animal not the air behind it.

PS i can get any calibre with in reason i like . I am not restricted to choice as most new lads are down south ( which is in my opinion a very bad thing ) So the rifle i have now is the one i choose to pip against deer . I also have a 22.250 but its only going to be used on foxes and roe does.

Little Terry
04-09-2008, 12:56
.243 is a class 2 weapon here. Roe badger and vermin. Reason we have moose and wild boar. The 6.5 is a very accurate low recoil round very suitable for the novice stalker. It will kill all deer species in the UK punkt slut.

Agreed - that's why I got mine! Sweden is the place to be. :-D

Thar
04-09-2008, 14:45
My reason is that the bullet makeup is such that the energy is transferred to the flesh of the animal not the air behind it.


I thought the long thin slim bullets were great at penetrating, and in my opinion do exactly the opposite of what you are saying. :roll:

Make your mind up. High SD small frontal area, small area to transfer energy, or poor SD large frontal area good at energy transfer(308)

I was with a bloke the other week (not in the UK) he has 11 centre fire rifles in his house, I asked him which one he uses most he said he had two 22 hornets one with scope one without, he says he uses them to shoot everything up to and including red deer and boar.(head shots). :shock:

. A 22 rimfire will drop any deer we have (hit in the right place).

Just because it can be done, it does not mean that is the best way.

A skilled man can knock nails in with an adjustable spanner, but most can do a better job with a hammer.

I think there are better calibres for large deer than the old swede things have moved on a bit in the last 110 years.

Best rgds

Tahr

Thar
04-09-2008, 14:48
Sweden is the place to be. :-D

Only for blonds. :lol: :lol:

Tahr

300wsm
04-09-2008, 15:02
I thought the long thin slim bullets were great at penetrating, and in my opinion do exactly the opposite of what you are saying. :roll:

Make your mind up. High SD small frontal area, small area to transfer energy, or poor SD large frontal area good at energy transfer(308)

Thats why I like 115gr BT's in .25cal long thin slim bullets good at penetrating but also have very good expansion, energy transfer and retained weight.

ejg
04-09-2008, 15:12
Tahr, agree to that.
On top of that, one problem is often overseen is that in the last maybe 50 years the bullet developement has been towards faster impact speeds and therefore harder bullets are on the market than used to be.
Eight pages of discussion and several countries not allowing the 6.5 for larger deer should be enough evidence to at least admit that the swede is OK but not the best choice for large deer.
edi

Oh, how many elephant did Mr. 7x57 shoot in the heart?
Didn't he only pop em behind the ear??

Thar
04-09-2008, 15:38
Thats why I like 115gr BT's in .25cal long thin slim bullets good at penetrating but also have very good expansion, energy transfer and retained weight.

Best of both and loads of hydrostatic shock as well.

Best rgds

Tahr

Davie
04-09-2008, 16:12
You are really pushing your knowledge base here and your echo ejg is looking like he hero worships you . Now i don't have a mate that shoots every thing in the head most of the lads i know shoot the engine room. With regards how the bullet performs is that down to the bullet weight and speed is not also on how it is presented at its chosen quarrie.
PS I SHOOT 129 SST,S TRY THEN YOUR SELF AND LETS HAVE AN OPINION FROM YOU THAT HAS A BIT OF SUBSTANCE.
Now i know that you have had runners with the rifles you have and some have run hundreds of yards. So lets not get into if your a good shot you can use a .22 rimmy :lol: :lol: :lol:

300wsm
04-09-2008, 18:49
Ah 6.5 I see that because you like the 6.5 x 55 it means all known laws of ballistics and energy do not apply to it. :lol: :lol:

According to some of your posts the 6.5 penetrates well due to its high SD and long bullets but then in another you state it dumps most of its energy in the animal :roll: :roll: which is it :roll: it cannot do both.

I guess if we follow all of your posts we have all been guilty of calibre wars and should have recommended that Heym keep his 243 and use 55 or 70 grain Ballistic Tips as these would dump all of there energy inside the animal and would have a nice flat trajectory instead of the 6.5's rainbow one :lol: :lol:

From the research a friend of mine did on 1000's or deer cull records any 30cal was by far the best performer for the least distance run by the animal, 308 being the best of the 30 cals.

jingzy
04-09-2008, 19:26
Although the 6.5 is long and thin and is well known for penetration, this is not the only factor. Dont forget the bullet is travelling slower than the .270, 25-06 and many others that I cant be bothered looking up. This is why it has such hard hitting ability. The energy is being transferred into the vtals more successfully.

This is why I didn't like the 25-06, I found that at close ranges the bullet had not expanded very well, thus transferring less energy and deer running on. When the deer was further than about 130yds, the bullet worked better and the deer either did not run or ran on less.

I also think that the use of 70gr bt is ok on most deer but I would think twice about large woodland stags.

6.5, what was the weight of the 2 deer in the photos, the 1st one looks very big.

Jingzy

300wsm
04-09-2008, 19:40
BT's expand well out of a .25 cal I have recovered several 3 x calibre BT's from close range deer 1 from a neck shot Fallow buck.

Velocity is everything for expansion think of a 14lb hammer being placed on a rivet against a 3lb hammer being driven to strike the rivet.

I have seen plently of PD's shot with 243 and 70gr BT and you dont get much bigger deer than one of those.

jingzy
04-09-2008, 19:56
300,

that is a good analogy but I know of deer that have been shot in the shoulder with a bt, the result was a large flesh wound with no penetration. So you are correct, lots of speed, lots of expansion, but not always doing the job correctly.

J

300wsm
04-09-2008, 20:28
Years ago I can remember being told about BT's creating big flesh wounds with no expansion but I have not had this happen or seen it first hand, I have had poor performance (lack of expansion) with gamekings as I posted earlier and I had the same with partitions I have tried Accubonds but wasn’t impressed with those either.

I went back to BT's to me Meat damage is secondary (it doesn’t even effect the price at the dealer if I sell one) deer welfare and recovery comes first, nice big wound, lots of trauma, short death flight, and a good blood trail so that if it is out of sight the dogs have a good trail to follow.

smullery
04-09-2008, 21:29
Just got my variation back today (Lincs, handed in last Wednesday, signed by CC this Monday and posted on Tuesday).

Got a second 6.5 x 55. My current Sako has 500mm barrel factory threaded and I want a sound moderator for it.

Again, I choose to use a 156gr modern bullet (only the cartrigde is ancient, not the powder or bullet) because of maximum expansion and minimal meat damage. Kudu and Wildebeest at 150 metres and Springbok out to 340 metres. Only Roe in the UK to date but Fallow and Red in two weeks in scotland.

Second 6.5 x 55 is because I want to use the same round with a standard 600 mm barrel length, un-moderated and over open sights.

Have enjoyed my 9.3 x 62 more with open sights over 150 metres in bushveld than with optics. (now allowed 9.3 x 62 ammo in the UK. Only had the rifle six weeks before getting it out to Africa).

My 15 year old fired his first rifle in South Africa only four weeks ago. 20 rounds over 90 minutes to get him zeroed and "safe" as well as comfortable in field technique.

The relatively mild recoil and the kill factor got him his confident, accomplished kills. 2 Gemsbok, 2 Impala, 1 Red Hartebeest, 1 Blesbok, 2 Steenbuck and 1 Warthog in five days.

I genuinely don't think he would have done it with a .243

I don't think I would have tried it with a .243 !

In the UK I would start anyone on a 6.5 x 55 for deer and not feel a need for anything greater. My chosen 286 gr rounds in 9.3 x 62 aren't legal in Scotland because they're too slow....

Stan

Thar
04-09-2008, 22:15
You are really pushing your knowledge base :
You have repeatedly made yourself look a fool with your lack of knowledge. :lol:



your echo ejg
:
Ejg is individual that does not even live in the same country as me so if he is my echo I must be shouting loud, or perhaps both of us like the German government just have a different opinion to you.



. Now i don't have a mate that shoots every thing in the head most of the lads i know shoot the engine room.
:
And if you have ever read any of my old posts you will see that I to advocate heart/lung shot and are anti even neck shots.



With regards how the bullet performs is that down to the bullet weight and speed is not also on how it is presented at its chosen quarrie.
:

Agreed a 130gn bullet travelling a 3000fps will kill better than one doing 2700fps.



PS I SHOOT 129 SST,S TRY THEN YOUR SELF AND LETS HAVE AN OPINION FROM YOU THAT HAS A BIT OF SUBSTANCE.
:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I use 130gn SST,



Now i know that you have had runners with the rifles you have and some have run hundreds of yards.


I don't recall me shooting any deer that have run hundreds of yards :???: , but I must commend you on your excellent shooting skills as you never have any runners. :lol:

That red was it shot on or near Cannock Chase? The vehicle looks familiar. ;)

I have guided a few people who tell you “I never miss” funny thing is that they on occasion have, of cause they tell me well that is the first time that has happened or other BS.

The name of the man that never misses is……………………………….Billy Lair. ;)

Best rgds

Tahr

Thar
05-09-2008, 03:25
Hi 300 WSM

When you look at the science it is easy to see why the 30 cal drops animals better than the old 6.5X55 just as your study found.

If we take Smullery's Norma 156gn bullet travelling at 2500fps at 200 yrds it has 1,415 ftlbs of energy.

The 308 with a 155gn bullet travelling at 2850fps at 200 yrds it has 2,023 ftlbs of energy.

But that only tells part of the story; the 308 bullet has around a 30% more frontal area (PIr2) with which to transfer that extra 600ftlbs of energy into the animal. It also causes a bigger wound channel and has better hydroalastic shock due to the higher velocity of the bullet.

The 6.5 drops 3” and the 308 2” at 200yrds when both zeroed at 150yrds, so accurate shot placement is likely to be slightly better with the 308.

All round for the UK stalker the 308 beats the 6.5 hands down.

As the Japanese found out in WW2 the 6.5 was no match when it mattered against the British 303 and US 30-06, it did not have the stopping power hence why they changed mid’ conflict to a 7.7mm round(30 cal) that was very similar to the 303.(have I said that before) :lol:

Best rgds

Tahr

jingzy
05-09-2008, 06:26
The us and british had that much stopping power that they resorted to nuclear weapons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is where you go wrong Thar. You see a 140gr 6.5 has higher sd than a 180gr .30 round. Yes there can be differences in trajectory but again this depends on the rifle and the ammo being used.

Last year me and a 2 mates had a competition. Thhey both used .308 and me a 6.5 swede. I beat them at 100yds, at 200 yds and then at 250 yds. What was the difference in drop when we done a trajectory check over 250 yds, you would have been lucky if it was an inch. :shock:

I like proven facts, it is easy to choose the type of data that you want to use. Can you also stop bringing other calibres into the 243, 6.5 debate, if anything it makes you look argumentative and quite arrogant. If you want to start a who hates the 6.5 thread then go ahead but try to keep this thread on track. :evil:

We know what you think, you use a 270 because you feel a bigger calibre will make up for your poor shooting, and your mate joined you cos he couldn't drop a deer with a 6.5, probably the only man on the planet. :lol:

Davie
05-09-2008, 09:56
Thar did you not keep banging a drum about how you mate from across the pond picks up a hornet and heads shoots everything and making as if this was great . Now i have missed and i have wounded no surprise there so i would not want to go taking fancy neck shots heads shots at distance.
With regards the 6.5 i love it and for me it performs perfectly.
With regards your runner of 100 .100s of yards was this not the roe buck that lost all the members of your syndicate there shooting as the forestry accused you of down right poaching :-P Maybe if you had used a 6.5 you wouldn't have had to travel so far over the clearly marked boundary. ;)
There 6.5 delvers the bullet at a perfect speed for enough penetration to enter the beast and then expands quickly to maximise energy transfer.
No one needs any more than that. ;)
With regards the size of that stag the large one it was well over 200kilo on the hook. That is one of many stags of similar size all shot with a 6.5.

ejg
05-09-2008, 10:13
If one recomends a cartridge to other stalkers, it is not about one little advantage, it is about the whole package. Lets have a look at the swede compared to say a 308 for a stalker and not a long range target expert with a 32 inch barrel.

Weight of rifle: 308 short action, lighter and handier
Barrel length vs lost velocity: 308 (faster powder)
Energy at up to 500yds: 308
Speed / less drop: 308 (150gr) vs 6.5 (140gr)
Bullet choice: 100-220gr 308 and bigger selection
Ammo availability: 308
Ammo choice: 308
Cheap ammo for practice: 308
Efficiency of cartridge: more power with way less powder, 308
Versatility: both: 308 deer and boar, 6.5 small deer and fox

If one looks at that, then how could one suggest a 6.5 for mainly deer stalking??

Of course a 6.5 kills deer, but not always as quick as some other calibers.
Another way of looking at it, a thousand average hunters stalk for ten years, with which deer caliber will the average death period of the deer be shorter? Runners?
edi

viking
05-09-2008, 10:16
I vote for .375H&H or even .303British.
But then again 1 of the calibres is all I have and the other 1 is 1 I would like.

:-D

Thar
05-09-2008, 11:39
Thar did you not keep banging a drum about how you mate from across the pond picks up a hornet and heads shoots everything and making as if this was great . Now i have missed and i have wounded no surprise there so i would not want to go taking fancy neck shots heads shots at distance.
With regards the 6.5 i love it and for me it performs perfectly.
With regards your runner of 100 .100s of yards was this not the roe buck that lost all the members of your syndicate there shooting as the forestry accused you of down right poaching :-P Maybe if you had used a 6.5 you wouldn't have had to travel so far over the clearly marked boundary. ;)
There 6.5 delvers the bullet at a perfect speed for enough penetration to enter the beast and then expands quickly to maximise energy transfer.
No one needs any more than that. ;)
With regards the size of that stag the large one it was well over 200kilo on the hook. That is one of many stags of similar size all shot with a 6.5.

Mr Longshot

I am not a fan of headshots or necks shots so stop Stop trying some crude attempt a charter assassination now you have lost the reasoned argument. The point I was making was that you can kill any animal with any calibre if you hit it in the right place. Right tool for the job was my point.

The deer that I shot ran 200yrds when hit with a 223, it was followed up with a trained dog in line with the deer commission for Scotland’s best practice and with in all aspects of Scottish law.

Yes you are right the Forest Commission Ranger did not like this, he was relatively new to the job from England and I can only assume that he did not know the law in England is different to Scotland.

The stalking syndicate did not loose it’s stalking due to this event or any other, in fact quite contra they were actually offered a extended lease on the block. You have been told this before but of cause that wouldn’t stop you from a bit of **** slinging.

Not that has anything to do with the 6.5 debate.

But rumour has it that you know a thing or two about poaching, had the Police at your door again earlier this year didn’t you because of a boarder indecent and you have had your rifles taken off you before now. :oops:

Now you have lost the reasoned debate and can not back your claims with science do not try and drag the posts down to the level of Passion for Stalking.

Tahr

Thar
05-09-2008, 12:09
You see a 140gr 6.5 has higher sd than a 180gr .30 round.
:

What is that high SD doing for you? you get a higher SD At the price of less frontal area, seeing a 30cal will shoot straight though a animal why do you need more penetration?



They both used .308 and me a 6.5 swede. I beat them at 100yds, at 200 yds and then at 250 yds. What was the difference in drop when we done a trajectory check over 250 yds, you would have been lucky if it was an inch. :shock:
:

Seeing the 308 shoots as flat as the 6.5 at stalking ranges but its bullets carries far more energy why use a 6.5. I am glad that you shot so well but it does not prove anything other than you are a better shot that them.



I like proven facts, it is easy to choose the type of data that you want to use. Can you also stop bringing other calibres into the 243, 6.5 debate, if anything it makes you look argumentative and quite arrogant. If you want to start a who hates the 6.5 thread then go ahead but try to keep this thread on track. :evil:
:

So bring some proven facts, science to the debate that backs your argument. If you read the whole of the first post and not just the headlines you will see that it specifically mentions 30cal so I am not bringing any other calibres to the debate. Are you sore because the 6.5 does not stack up against the 308? Takes two to argue/debate that’s what makes it interesting. I do not hate the 6.5 I might even get one for small deer. :lol:



We know what you think, you use a 270 because you feel a bigger calibre will make up for your poor shooting, and your mate joined you cos he couldn't drop a deer with a 6.5, probably the only man on the planet. :lol:

You know nothing about why I have the 270 so do not make assumptions, I have reasons for the 270 that have nothing to do with the debate on here. If you read back though the posts you will see that he was not the only one that had unsatisfactory out comes with the Swede.

Best rgds

Tahr

Go Go the 308. :twisted:

jingzy
05-09-2008, 12:48
Also quite interesting that some of the Deer Commission Stalkers moved from the .270 down to the 6.5 swede.

How many reds do they shoot a year.

There you go the pro's have it. They didn't even look at the 30 calibres.
:oops:


Straight to 6.5.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Enough said.

Davie
05-09-2008, 13:15
Bambi if you say you can shoot anything with any bullet and say your mate shoots with a .22 hornet and i repeat that statement whats the problem . Now with regards loosing the debate i feel it is your self and a few others that went off track . I am sure it was a debate about the .243 /6.5 .i might be wrong but hey it has been known .
But ill bet your .223 after wounding and causing trouble is well and truly in the bin . Is this the reason you say the smaller calibres are not up to the job. :lol: :lol: .
EJG Have ever shot large deer with a 6.5 ill bet you haven't because if you had you wouldn't say it is only for fox and small deer :lol: . That would then put the .243 in the category of Rabbit Fox rifle. :shock: .
It would also mean that the .222 and 223 were of no use for any type of deer. They have just been promoted in England after a long long debate as a small deer legal calibre and have been used in Scotland for years with great success. :cry:
Now it seems that you have been on a crusade of sorts about this calibre and have replied negatively to any question about the 6.5 .Now it is totally hypocritical to shoot deer with 223 and then suggest that the 6.5 is not up to the job.

243varmint
05-09-2008, 13:29
I currently use a 243 - perhaps not the ideal calibre, but the left handed Heym SR20 I have fits well, shoots accurately and I have a lot of confidence in it.

I do have the space for a .30 caibre on my ticket and am thinking of getting something along the lines of 30-06 for African use / red stags etc.

But have just seen a nice left handed rifel in 6.5x55 that has got me thinking. Would you swap your current rifle that you really like for something quite similar - does the 6.5x55 do anything in the UK that you can't do with a .243, and is it really big enough to go up to plains game etc?

Have been away for a couple of days, and have read through this subject again.
I am no expert on this subject, BUT can we leave all the public slanging matches or the slagging off of each other to PM'S
IT will do the site NO good.
Does not give a good impression to new people to the site or people who are just browsing.
PLEASE PLEASE leave personal insults out of PUBLIC debates

Please just give good advice to somebody who has asked a reasonable question.

Thank you

Jonathon

Thar
05-09-2008, 13:53
Bambi if you say you can shoot anything with any bullet and say your mate shoots with a .22 hornet.

Now it seems that you have been on a crusade of sorts about this calibre and have replied negatively to any question about the 6.5 .Now it is totally hypocritical to shoot deer with 223 and then suggest that the 6.5 is not up to the job.


He was not a mate just somebody I shot with, a friend of a friend, how many more times do you want me to say I do not Condone head shooting.

I see no hypocrisy in shooting 35lbs roe does with a 55gn bullet travelling at 3200fps and not recommending a 129gn bullet travelling at 2700fps for use on red deer weighing 10 times that much, then we come to Plains game that can be even bigger. :???:

I have never said that the 6.5 was not adequate, only that other calibres provide better ballistics for shooting larger game be that big stags or plains game so they would be a better choice.

My view is that it is slightly more powerful that a 243 and less than a 7-08 but it can not compete with a 30cal be that a 308 or 30-06.

Show me ballistic data from any reliable source to dispute that statement.

My position is that I will challenge any BS that is printed about this round, if that up sets people then so be it, some times the truth hurts. :twisted:

Show me the data to back your view that the 6.5X55 is better than a 30-06, "300WSM" has said that data over 1000s of shot deer shows the 30cal as a better stopper, and scientific data backs this up, 600ftlbs of energy at 200yrds more.

Best rgds

Tahr

300wsm
05-09-2008, 16:57
some times can't believe how far the deer makes it with only a little of the heart left or no lungs and a damaged heart.


Perhaps you should swap your Military Relic of a Calibre to a 270 that way you would be able to comment that you couldn't belive how little your deer ran :lol: :lol: :lol:

Joking over and I will cut to the chase here is some manufacturers data on the .243 6.5 and others mentioned in this thread.

I was interested to read that the 6.5 is now the choice of professionals as I can only think of two that use that calibre with most of the rest using .243, .25-06, .270 (mainly Scotland) and .308, I was also interested to see that the ballistics of the 308 were being quoted using 180gr bullets, the 308 is on its limit at this weight and most managers I know use either 125gr or 150gr.


Looking at the below tables you will notice that the 6.5 is pretty much at the bottom of the pile along with the 7x57 (another old military calibre) and both only have marginally high ME than the 243 and both have much poorer drop and wind drift.

The 6.5 has and will continue to kill many deer that will never know the difference, just as the .223 killed thousands of Reds in NZ.

This doesn't make them the 'ideal' deer calibre as beauty is often in the eye of the beholder.

The one thing the 6.5x55 is not, is a high performing gravity and wind defying, super calibre that some of it supporters have tried to make it out to be on this thread, if it were the bench rest boys would not be mainly using 6br, 6.5-284 and 300wsm.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg257/65wssm/Fed1.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg257/65wssm/Fed2.jpg

Now lets quit the sniping at what people may have or haven't done and get back to sensible informed discussion, without the personal attacks.

And in case we have all forgotten the originally question, Heym no I personally would not sell the 243 for a 6.5x55 especially if you are planning on getting a 30cal if I was going to buy another 'middle' calibre rifle it would be a 25-06 or then again a 6.5-06 or then again a ...............
.................................................. .................................................. ......
.................................................. ................................... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Davie
05-09-2008, 19:20
Now just as a matter of point so your table puts a

.243 pushing a bullet that small it would brake the law shooting any deer bigger than a roe. 95 grn
The 2506 is using a 115 grn
and the 6.5 is using a 140.

looks like a real comparison to me but hey stats you got to love them and the people that use them to make a point .
Like the chap that used them to find out the best time to shoot deer with out allowing for the massive shift in the dawn a dusk times.

At least bambi used the same size bullet even if it was the wrong calibre.
I WILL KEEP MY HARD HITTING 6.5 AND WILL JUST NEED TO MAKE SURE MY DOG WORKS TO A HIGH STANDARD :oops:

splash
06-09-2008, 08:53
Like the table !

Shows the .260 off a treat ! :-D

300wsm
06-09-2008, 09:20
We dont often agree Splash but the 260 does everything the 6.5 x 55 does only better, faster, with higher ME, in a shorter action and for less powder.

sikamalc
06-09-2008, 13:19
OK guys thats it :shock:

Quite honestly I dont give a flying **** about which calibre outshoots one or another. At the end of the day its the man or women behind the gun. You put the bullet in the right place and the deer falls over.

I think this argument about which calibre does what is about done to death yet again.

We all have our preferences, and we all know what each round can do, lets just leave it at that shall we. Ive seen enough ******** about different calibres on this thread to sink the Titanic.

Again one or two people have come very near the mark, keep your remarks decent. You know who I am refering to, otherwise you will be banned.

NO MORE WARNINGS!!

300wsm
06-09-2008, 21:25
Mmmm we cannot debate calibres in the Rifle and calibre forum because it has been done before but we can slag off BASC, BDS, DMQ et al as much as we like on any thread or forum. :???:

smullery
06-09-2008, 23:15
Hey,

On Thursday I wasn't allowed to shoot my 9.3 x 6.2 in "Great Britain". On Friday I was. Allowed to "purchase / aquire" both expanding (to and from port of embarkation) and non expanding ammo but only allowed to "zero on a range".

Paper targets now appear to go down quicker.

So what was this 7.62 v 9.3 issue about?

Stan

Fester
06-09-2008, 23:52
You can choose what ever "Deer legal" Calibre you like. put up as many statistics up as you want, argue the toss between each other over what calibre will do better than the other :roll:
What the F##K does it matter :shock: :???: :???:
If the **** behind the rifle cant shoot then it makes no difference what cal your using, your not gonna get the results you want.
if your relying on larger calibre to take your Deer down then can i suggest you spend some more time punching holes in targets to improve your shooting ability than shooting at Deer :shock:
Ive shot alot of deer over the years & used all kinds of calibres, There all up to the job if you use them properly & place the bullet in the rite place :roll:
Like they say size does not matter :!: its how you use it at the end of the day :roll:
we all have our favourite calibres & feel comfortable with what weve got so thats all that matters.
i dont get involved in the calibre argument because whats good for 1 person aint always good for the other. choose your calibre & practice with it until you know you limitations & know exactly what you can & cant do with it, Once your happy with it then that will become the best calibre in your mind, but just remember it mite not be the best in the mind of others :roll:

Thar
07-09-2008, 09:39
Well I would like to thank those involved for a good and at times lively debate, :lol: hope none of you have taken things personal apart from Dave (6.5X55)……………………………………………….. only joking, it would take more than that to get under your skin hey Dave. ;) The next topic we might agree on after all.

While agreeing that the debate is in large a theatrical one because to quote myself:-



One thing I will conceded is that I am of the firm opinion, that the most important calibre in stalking is the calibre of the man behind the butt. ;)

As responsible informed and ethical stalkers we should know how powerful the cartridge we use is in relative to other commonly used cartridges.

Best rgds

Tahr

Jagare
07-09-2008, 10:09
steyr 243 1000% correct. First sensible post on this topic. Apart from mine ;)

300wsm
07-09-2008, 10:22
Jagare and Steyr I could not agree more,

Thats why I like my .204 and atlas joint shots :lol: ;)

splash
07-09-2008, 10:40
I thought the point of a forum was to disagree/debate ?

If all the postings agreed with each other and were all correct we would not look at the site much would we ?

sikamalc
07-09-2008, 11:06
300wsm I have no issue with anyone debating over calibres, and no one is slagging off BASC, we are just putting facts forward.

What I do not want to see is people getting personal with each other, lets leave that to the playground shall we!!!

By all means debate over calibres I have no intention of stopping, just keep it civil PLEASE!!

Davie
08-09-2008, 12:22
Well i have learned something from this thread and i have thrown my Richard Prior book in the fire. I am not going to poach any more just retrieve all my deer from the other side of the fence under the no trespass law in Scotland. I will also be having a good look at my rifle set up to see why it manages to kill most of the deer i shoot at with out any problems . ;)

PS KEVIN YOUR RIGHT T TAKES A LOT TO UPSET ME :twisted:

sikamalc
08-09-2008, 18:59
6.5x55

I am sure your preffered calibre 6.5x55 is perfectly adequate to take any species in the UK, just the same as my 25.06 and 270 :-D and a very good round the 6.5x55 is as well.

As far as I am aware the law in Scotland now allows you access to your own land via a neighbours ground providing the rifle is in a slip and covered, and also providing you are limited by access. But as with most things in life it pays to at least advise your neighbours that you intend on doing so and seek their good wishes.

Now gentlemen whatever calibre you use best of luck and good hunting.

Whatever legal calibre you choose to stalk with, just ensure the bullet is in the right place, and as sure as the sun rises tomorrow you will have a dead deer. ;)

Thar
09-09-2008, 00:47
I am not going to poach any more just retrieve all my deer from the other side of the fence under the no trespass law in Scotland.

Dave you are quoting the wrong piece of legislation, it is the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 section 25 that covers you when you are tracking a wounded deer that has traveled on to land were you do not have permission to shoot. It is the same piece of legislation that covers you when attending RTAs ect. All stalkers, especially those that use dogs for tracking wounded deer should make themselves familiar with this part of the deer act. The act is referenced to in the Deer Commission for Scotland’s Best practice :- “dogs for deer”

One other unknown fact is that under Section 25 of the act you can shoot the dependant young of a mother that you have shot or are about to shoot (on your land) even if they are on the wrong side of the boundary fence.

Two things I would add are, if you find your dog is taking you over your boundary fence, are once you have recovered it is to take photographic evidence of the wounded deer,ie were it was shot, leg, gut, jaw, neck, ect. Also it is a good idea if your dog has a distinctive tracking collar so there should be no misunderstanding that you are tracking a wounded deer.(as my dog did) ;)

Malc under the 1995 right of access act I don’t think there is any specific need to have your rifle in a slip, you just have to give good reason for being on that land with a firearm, good reason is usually traveling to or from land that you do have permission to shoot on. But I concede that a slip might help prevent any misunderstanding with the land owners.

Best rgds

Tahr

Davie
09-09-2008, 08:36
well ;) It didn't take you long to Wise up to the Scottish law Kevin and i think that any of the English chaps who shoot up here should get them selves familiar with the new laws and some of the old ones. It could save them and the others involved in any altercation a lot of time money and sanity ;) :-P

buck52
18-09-2008, 17:06
I am not going to poach any more just retrieve all my deer from the other side of the fence under the no trespass law in Scotland.

Dave you are quoting the wrong piece of legislation, it is the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 section 25 that covers you when you are tracking a wounded deer that has traveled on to land were you do not have permission to shoot. It is the same piece of legislation that covers you when attending RTAs ect. All stalkers, especially those that use dogs for tracking wounded deer should make themselves familiar with this part of the deer act. The act is referenced to in the Deer Commission for Scotland’s Best practice :- “dogs for deer”

One other unknown fact is that under Section 25 of the act you can shoot the dependant young of a mother that you have shot or are about to shoot (on your land) even if they are on the wrong side of the boundary fence.

Two things I would add are, if you find your dog is taking you over your boundary fence, are once you have recovered it is to take photographic evidence of the wounded deer,ie were it was shot, leg, gut, jaw, neck, ect. Also it is a good idea if your dog has a distinctive tracking collar so there should be no misunderstanding that you are tracking a wounded deer.(as my dog did) ;)

Malc under the 1995 right of access act I don’t think there is any specific need to have your rifle in a slip, you just have to give good reason for being on that land with a firearm, good reason is usually traveling to or from land that you do have permission to shoot on. But I concede that a slip might help prevent any misunderstanding with the land owners.

Best rgds

Tahr

In Scotland it is also the law that, to get around the wind, you can stalk accross your neighbours land to get 'at'/shoot a deer on your own patch.

snowstorm
18-09-2008, 19:27
In Scotland it is also the law that, to get around the wind, you can stalk accross your neighbours land to get 'at'/shoot a deer on your own patch.

=====

That bit above is not correct.

You can have access if it is the only way you can get to your land e.g. you can have a rifle in your car driving up the A1 (which you don't own). But you can't carry a gun uncovered/shoot on anyone elses land unless you are stalking a wounded deer shot on your own. Even then you have to show you have carried out a risk assessment first or you are comitting armed tresspass.

It's is also true that once you have shot the beast dead it belongs to whoever owns the land it dies on and if you remove it then its theft, and your game dealer could be charged with handling stolen goods.

There is no criminal offence of tresspass, but aggravated and armed tresspass do exist and are very real.

If in doubt call your neighbour, or have it in writing beforehand.

Think twice before stepping over a boundary with rifle if you don't have permission. I certainly wouldn't recommend telling the land owner that you have a legal right to be there loaded rifle in hand for any other reason than stalking a wounded animal.

Best,

S.

ReneZ
24-09-2008, 16:08
As a newcomer I am quite surprised at the partisan stance over different calibers and the way people feel the need to address each other in. However it is great to see so many trying to answer the actual question and make this forum good fun and really helpful to read. Learned a lot, about the forum and its members.

Cheers, Rene.

DL
27-03-2009, 03:05
Hillbilly, This has been done before! You must have known what you were letting yourself in for, six pages is obviously pretty average on here for a 6.5 debate, ten pages however is well hard.

smullery
31-03-2009, 23:12
DL,

I don't reckon 10 pages is well hard, just thick :)

Stan

P.S. Owner of 2 x 6.5 x 55

tolley
01-04-2009, 14:22
You can choose what ever "Deer legal" Calibre you like. put up as many statistics up as you want, argue the toss between each other over what calibre will do better than the other :roll:
What the F##K does it matter :shock: :???: :???:
If the **** behind the rifle cant shoot then it makes no difference what cal your using, your not gonna get the results you want.
if your relying on larger calibre to take your Deer down then can i suggest you spend some more time punching holes in targets to improve your shooting ability than shooting at Deer :shock:
Ive shot alot of deer over the years & used all kinds of calibres, There all up to the job if you use them properly & place the bullet in the rite place :roll:
Like they say size does not matter :!: its how you use it at the end of the day :roll:
we all have our favourite calibres & feel comfortable with what weve got so thats all that matters.
i dont get involved in the calibre argument because whats good for 1 person aint always good for the other. choose your calibre & practice with it until you know you limitations & know exactly what you can & cant do with it, Once your happy with it then that will become the best calibre in your mind, but just remember it mite not be the best in the mind of others :roll:

TOO TURE its not what you got its how you use it.
you can miss ,wound with any sort of caibres .i think a lot of shooters think of getting the biggest caiblre they can thinking it will make them a better shot.
if tis right for you and the job then thats all that matters. :-D

tikkathreebarrels
08-04-2009, 10:08
Okay so I'm new here and maybe I ought to be more respectful but I have to say I did enjoy this thread: all the facts, semi-facts, quotes and counter-quotes, all those diversions from the original question (yeah, why don't we all shoot 6.5x 284 then we can rebarrell every 1000 rounds) but I must confess to attention fade somewhere around page 8. Nothing to do with the content of that particular page, just that I couldn't see any new FACTUAL information coming to light.

Maybe a push-button poll would help?

What - me? Oh, I've got both, but my trouble is that one is a 101 year-old Swedish service rifle and the other is a modern stalker with a moderator. Yes, yes, I know about 30 calibres too, it's just that well, you know....

Now, the next thread, something about .22/250 versus those new-fangled chamberings (anyone remember .22 and 6mm WSSM, the best things to come out of the USA since the model T Ford?) :lol:

njc110381
27-04-2009, 19:10
I wouldn't change a .243 for a 6.5x55 if I was planning to go abroad for larger game. Keep the .243 and get a big gun. In my limited experience .375H&H drops Deer very well and will stuff anything on the planet. Mind you it's like the 6.5x55 in a way, you could always use something more powerful. :roll: It is however overkill on Squirrel (which I have also shot with it).

I know a few experienced shots that use the 6.5x55. I picked it because it was better than a .243 for the larger UK species. Having said that, who wants to shoot a Munty with a .270? The 6.5x55 is a mild calibre and most of its problems seem to be due to bullet choice. With too light a bullet it will make a mess like the .243 can, with a heavy one it will drill through much deeper than a .243 ever will. What I like is having the choice - if I ever want to shoot anything bigger with it I can get a bullet that digs in deep, an option the .243 doesn't have.