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Heather Hugger
29-04-2012, 21:26
Hi All

What is the law with people picking up antlers in Scotland?

I know nobody owns deer until they are dead, is that the case when the antler is cast. Does it then belong to the landowner?

HH

pilgrimmick
29-04-2012, 22:04
I think it does, but do not think you will get done if you pick some up. If stopped and asked for it back, just hand it over.

craigievarkiller
29-04-2012, 22:07
I would be surprised if any landowner would be upset with you picking up cast antlers.

I doubt the law would even cover this

devilishdave
29-04-2012, 22:09
as I understand it when the antler is still atached to the animal it is classed as venison!! not sure of the technicalities once cast though.

Dave

Tamus
30-04-2012, 09:09
Hi All

What is the law with people picking up antlers in Scotland?

I know nobody owns deer until they are dead, is that the case when the antler is cast. Does it then belong to the landowner?

HH

Why would an antler (cast or otherwise) be any different from any other item one might "pick up"?

If you are on someone else's property why would you think you have the right to pick up and keep anything you see without the owner's permission?

Or do you think there might be "laws" which give you dispensation to do so?

I'm always intrigued to see how people try and justify theft. Mushroom pickers are the most inventive in this department, in my experience and firewood thieves are among the nastiest, after scrappies and poachers.

My suggestion is, ask for the owner's permission... and ask nicely... you might be pleasantly surprised.

Public land is another matter... though many imagine it covers most of Scotland... but it certainly doesn't.

pilgrimmick
30-04-2012, 09:11
+1 for firewood theives.

pitiliedon
30-04-2012, 17:58
Antlers are part of the stalkers perks and can be worth a few 100,s annually, approx 6-7/Kg.
Climbing into inbye fields to get antlers or lifting them of the green haugh lands at the bottom of a glen where the stags winter would not be appreciated as it is almost certainly where the stalker/shepherd is collecting his.
Picking up an odd antler while out on the open hill is unlikely to bother anyone but the best and most courteious approach is to ask permission from the people on the ground.

Heather Hugger
30-04-2012, 22:02
Tamus

Thank you for your constructive views.

HH

bogtrotter
30-04-2012, 23:11
You are welcome to come and pick up mine, you will need to be quick though they don't get a chance to hit the ground:rofl:

trouble
01-05-2012, 01:23
Mushroom pickers are the most inventive in this department, in my experience and firewood thieves are among the nastiest, after scrappies and poachers.

My suggestion is, ask for the owner's permission... and ask nicely... you might be pleasantly surprised.

Public land is another matter... though many imagine it covers most of Scotland... but it certainly doesn't.Mushrooms are a funny thing , if they cut them you cant do anything , if they pick them you can do them for tresspass

Tamus
01-05-2012, 13:03
Mushrooms are a funny thing , if they cut them you cant do anything , if they pick them you can do them for tresspass

The Theft Act 1968 (I hope I've titled it correctly) appears to specifically permit anyone to indulge in wild berry picking, wild flower picking and wild mushroom picking (provided it's not done for profit and providing the growing organisms are not uprooted).... but only in England and Wales..... unfortunately, convincing people that said Act is not a Scottish Instrument and does not apply here is often like banging your head of a brick wall. Even SNH seem to have adopted it, North of the border... :roll:

Fortunately the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, for all the confusion and disruption it is causing, does have, as one of it's few sensible benefits, the advantage of clearly stipulating many areas to which access rights do not extend and therefore to areas where "mushroom pickers" et al have no right to be. Unfortunately, again, few people bother to learn just how many areas are off limits and even the "Access Code" does tend to "interpret" the law here... Heck... I've even had an access Ranger try arguing with me (quite erroneously) about a private road through my own farm buildings, which is most certainly NOT a public right of way and is therefore land to which access rights definitely do not extend, but now I digress.

As stated before, just show a bit of respect and courtesy to the landowner and ask nicely. I know it's not fashionable to do these days but, in my experience, it nearly always helps you get what you want and saves anyone from getting steamed up. There's one guy I always allow on to pick mushrooms in cropping fields here because he gives me a share of my own mushrooms in return (usually just Horse mushrooms and common Field mushrooms)... :D ....But he did once find some Morels that I had never noticed or known about before, though he'll be a very lucky boy indeed if he ever beats me to the Oyster Mushrooms, Chanterelles or young Puffballs.

No-one's ever asked me about looking for Antlers but I could point someone in the right direction for those too.

widows son
01-05-2012, 13:30
The Theft Act 1968 (I hope I've titled it correctly) appears to specifically permit anyone to indulge in wild berry picking, wild flower picking and wild mushroom picking (provided it's not done for profit and providing the growing organisms are not uprooted).... but only in England and Wales..... unfortunately, convincing people that said Act is not a Scottish Instrument and does not apply here is often like banging your head of a brick wall. Even SNH seem to have adopted it, North of the border... :roll:



Fortunately the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, for all the confusion and disruption it is causing, does have, as one of it's few sensible benefits, the advantage of clearly stipulating many areas to which access rights do not extend and therefore to areas where "mushroom pickers" et al have no right to be. Unfortunately, again, few people bother to learn just how many areas are off limits and even the "Access Code" does tend to "interpret" the law here... Heck... I've even had an access Ranger try arguing with me (quite erroneously) about a private road through my own farm buildings, which is most certainly NOT a public right of way and is therefore land to which access rights definitely do not extend, but now I digress.

As stated before, just show a bit of respect and courtesy to the landowner and ask nicely. I know it's not fashionable to do these days but, in my experience, it nearly always helps you get what you want and saves anyone from getting steamed up. There's one guy I always allow on to pick mushrooms in cropping fields here because he gives me a share of my own mushrooms in return (usually just Horse mushrooms and common Field mushrooms)... :D ....But he did once find some Morels that I had never noticed or known about before, though he'll be a very lucky boy indeed if he ever beats me to the Oyster Mushrooms, Chanterelles or young Puffballs.

No-one's ever asked me about looking for Antlers but I could point someone in the right direction for those too.

So after all of the above your actually saying fill your boots .

Remember 90% of the landowners in Scotland are absent .
I've seen loads of people coming off the hill with cast antlers I wouldn't think twice of saying a thing to them .

Tamus
01-05-2012, 13:46
So after all of the above your actually saying fill your boots .

Remember 90% of the landowners in Scotland are absent .
I've seen loads of people coming off the hill with cast antlers I wouldn't think twice of saying a thing to them .

The question was... "what's the law?"

I'm guessing it's not your hill or maybe you would think twice about saying something to them, if they had just helped themselves to stuff that didn't belong to them.

I once had a guy ask if he could pick mushrooms off a turnip field of mine. I even said yes to him.... then he nicked a sack full of turnips too. I saw him do it, jumped in my car and he sped off. So, I followed him till he got back to his house (8miles away), he couldn't believe I was that bothered about a few turnips and he seemed to think I was completely nuts for wasting time and petrol money on following him and clearly he did not understand at all when I said I wasn't actually bothered about a few turnips but I was seriously pissed off at him for stealing from me and I took my neeps back. He hasn't been back here, in daylight hours, since. Was that you?

Deer Assassin
01-05-2012, 13:53
I know antlers are not the same as mushrroms, turnips or anything else you cultivate yourself, but what value are old cast antlers to you?

In Scotland you cant stop them walking the ground with the public right to roam, so i cant see the harm in allowing them to take the antlers.
Avoids confrontation in a situation that you have little or no control over anyway.

DL
01-05-2012, 14:04
I took my neeps back. He hasn't been back here, in daylight hours, since. Was that you?

I think you're quite safe, I'm very confident widow's son isn't a turnip thief! :lol:

As for cast antlers, I don't seem to find any. Maybe somebody's been away with them.

Tamus
01-05-2012, 14:35
I know antlers are not the same as mushrroms, turnips or anything else you cultivate yourself, but what value are old cast antlers to you?

In Scotland you cant stop them walking the ground with the public right to roam, so i cant see the harm in allowing them to take the antlers.
Avoids confrontation in a situation that you have little or no control over anyway.


Now, there's a red-rag, if ever I saw one.. :D and I've already indicated I wouldn't have an issue with someone asking about antlers too..:roll:

However, you are right, insofar as I wouldn't likely ever bother about antlers......... but, where would you draw the line with that sort of attitude?

There's some nice daffies growing in my neighbours garden still... is it ok if I just nick a bunch of those before they die back?... They can't be worth much and they'll be past by next week anyway...

Heather Hugger
01-05-2012, 22:38
Now, there's a red-rag, if ever I saw one.. :D and I've already indicated I wouldn't have an issue with someone asking about antlers too..:roll:

However, you are right, insofar as I wouldn't likely ever bother about antlers......... but, where would you draw the line with that sort of attitude?

There's some nice daffies growing in my neighbours garden still... is it ok if I just nick a bunch of those before they die back?... They can't be worth much and they'll be past by next week anyway...

NO, access rights do not apply to private gardens. I thought YOU of all people would know that.:stir:

Tamus
02-05-2012, 09:21
NO, access rights do not apply to private gardens. I thought YOU of all people would know that.:stir:

They don't apply to woods either but an awful lot of folk don't seem to know that, or don't care. So, many do come into our woodland and nick our daffies.

It's an unjust world.... init? 15110

cowsmart
02-05-2012, 11:12
I was always taught to leave cast antlers where they lay as they are an important form of calcium to the deer as they 'munch' on them....or is this just an old wives tale ??

Heather Hugger
02-05-2012, 12:19
They don't apply to woods either but an awful lot of folk don't seem to know that, or don't care. So, many do come into our woodland and nick our daffies.

It's an unjust world.... init? 15110

Under what circumstance to access right not apply to woodland? Unless it is a very small woodland which is classed as part of a private residence and/or a health and safety issue.

Pages 11-13 of the access code do not state that access is restricted to woodland. But as you put it, picking up antlers could be classed as theft and therefore you are not exercising you access rights responsibly.


So, you should not pick up antlers as it is theft and access rights DO apply to woodland (unless it is restricted for any of the reasons stated in section 2.11 of the SOAC):thumb:

HH

Tamus
02-05-2012, 13:30
Under what circumstance to access right not apply to woodland? Unless it is a very small woodland which is classed as part of a private residence and/or a health and safety issue.

Pages 11-13 of the access code do not state that access is restricted to woodland. But as you put it, picking up antlers could be classed as theft and therefore you are not exercising you access rights responsibly.


So, you should not pick up antlers as it is theft and access rights DO apply to woodland (unless it is restricted for any of the reasons stated in section 2.11 of the SOAC):thumb:

HH



Sorry for suckering you in and thanks for the chance to keep right on spouting... :D But... for your edification and that of others too.

Land over which access rights are NOT exercisable includes land "in which crops have been sown or are growing" ... per Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003

Clarification as to what this means is also stated:

Land Reform Scotland Act 2003, Chapter 2.
(10) For the purposes of section 6(1)(i) above land on which crops are growing—
(a) includes land on which grass is being grown for hay and silage which is at such a
late stage of growth that it is likely to be damaged by the exercise of access rights
in respect of the land in which it is growing, but otherwise does not include
grassland;
(b) does not include headrigs, endrigs or other margins of fields in which crops are
growing,
and “crops” means plants which are cultivated for agricultural, forestry or commercial
purposes.

Tamus
02-05-2012, 20:47
Aww! H-H no response?... Has yet another avid reader of the S.O.A.C. found out that on some points the wording of the actual law and the wording of SNH's "advice" don't quite, or even remotely, tally?

"Ah dinae care whit ye think yer wee code says".... "Git oota ma wuids!"... "they's crops and yeave nae right be-in in them"...

"an whits mair, that's the law" :D:D

Not an everyday quote (and heaven forbid it ever should be) but just how confident are you that someone uttering it would actually be wrong?

Acm
02-05-2012, 22:40
I was always taught to leave cast antlers where they lay as they are an important form of calcium to the deer as they 'munch' on them....or is this just an old wives tale ??

Forget pulling your leg mate I think someone's run off with it !

Heather Hugger
02-05-2012, 22:56
Aww! H-H no response?... Has yet another avid reader of the S.O.A.C. found out that on some points the wording of the actual law and the wording of SNH's "advice" don't quite, or even remotely, tally?

"Ah dinae care whit ye think yer wee code says".... "Git oota ma wuids!"... "they's crops and yeave nae right be-in in them"...

"an whits mair, that's the law" :D:D

Not an everyday quote (and heaven forbid it ever should be) but just how confident are you that someone uttering it would actually be wrong?

Sorry I do have a life outside this forum. I do a bit of deer stalking.

You have misinterpreted the Act. You can not possibly be suggesting that access rights do not apply to every commercial plantation in Scotland. I would suggest that you seek professional advice before making yourself look like an absolute t*t. Oh I have just given you professional advice.:D

HH

Tamus
02-05-2012, 23:16
Sorry I do have a life outside this forum. I do a bit of deer stalking.

You have misinterpreted the Act. You can not possibly be suggesting that access rights do not apply to every commercial plantation in Scotland. I would suggest that you seek professional advice before making yourself look like an absolute t*t. Oh I have just given you professional advice.:D

HH

This from the man who had to ask about picking up antlers?

Your profession isn't lawyer, as one might be intended to infer. SNH employee perhaps?

Incidentally, I'm suggesting nothing.... merely quoting the Act, as well you know by now. If that suggests something you don't like to consider, too bad.

And... Have you found out what my credentials really are yet? ... I suspect not. ;)

Heather Hugger
03-05-2012, 12:26
Tamus

I would like to thank you for you views and opinions (wrong as there were). I have concluded that from your posts, the structure and effort that you put into them you are unfortunately one of these people that enjoy trolling threads to be a nuance to get reactions out of people.

On that note, I will not be replying to you again and I ask you kindly not post and/or make comments on any threads and/or comments I may make in the future on this forum.

Regards
Heather Hugger

Tamus
03-05-2012, 13:36
Oh well, law is still law and facts are still facts.

Land where crops have been sown or are growing is still land to which access rights do not extend, by virtue of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003.

And "crops" are still defined as they are within that act, as its wording says.... regardless of any of our opinions.

DL
03-05-2012, 13:38
Oh well, law is still law and facts are still facts.

Land where crops have been sown or are growing is still land to which access rights do not extend, by virtue of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003.

And "crops" are still defined as they are within that act, as it's wording says.... regardless of any of our opinions.

Does this mean you aren't the forums self appointed legal beagle any more? :lol:

Tamus
03-05-2012, 14:17
Does this mean you aren't the forums self appointed legal beagle any more? :lol:

I think you might be confusing me with Orion... :D

I'm just the self appointed "stater of consistent facts" and "arguer with inconsistent claims" :cool:

David T
03-05-2012, 18:10
For crying out loud, 3 pages on can I take an antler home......really ? if you find an antler and you would like it, pick it up and take it home.

bogtrotter
03-05-2012, 21:04
Of course if you find an antler and want it take it home, but I don't think thats what was really ment by the original post
on the hill most of your stags will cast in the same place, you can be talking of several hundred quids worth of antler
lying in a small area, as someone already said stalkers perks.

ScottishDeer
03-05-2012, 21:24
Agree with bogtrotter. Taking a single antler may not seem a big deal but take several or even a full head (from a dead stag) is a different story. A friend once took a head he found only to be confronted by an angry gamekeeper who demanded 50 or he would phone the police!!! Be aware, it IS theft!!!

Tamus
05-05-2012, 11:57
Tamus

I would like to thank you for you views and opinions (wrong as there were). I have concluded that from your posts, the structure and effort that you put into them you are unfortunately one of these people that enjoy trolling threads to be a nuance to get reactions out of people.

On that note, I will not be replying to you again and I ask you kindly not post and/or make comments on any threads and/or comments I may make in the future on this forum.

Regards
Heather Hugger

You are a curious fellow, but at least true to your word. In that you have not replied to my remarks, none of which were incorrect as you seem to fully know. However, what you might and I feel really ought to have pointed out is that although the 2003 act is worded exactly as I have I quoted, it was subsequently amended to remove the anomally I alluded to. Here now is that amendment for everyone else's benefit:

Modification of Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003

2. Section 7 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 is modified:
(a)by inserting after paragraph (b) of subsection (10) (c)does not include land used wholly or mainly-
(i)as woodland or an orchard, or
(ii)for the growing of trees;
but does include land used wholly for the cultivation of tree seedlings in beds,€; and
(b)by deleting from that subsection the word "forestry".


Here's my puzzlement, you seem so adamant of your grasp and my failure to grasp how our law currently stands on this point and yet by the same token you ask your innocent seeming question in your Original Post which implies you seek an answer which one might now deduce you already have your own opinion of an answer to. I can understand why you might do that, but I cannot understand why you choose not to do as I am doing here and come back with what you actually know. I realise that by way of explanation you may have to give us a brief summary of the fundamentally "permissive" nature of Scot's law, as different from the ethos behind the laws of England and Wales, but that can be encompassed succinctly. Or would you feel embarassed at revealing "you knew all along"?

Just for the record; I do not know that taking things that don't belong to you, such as a "found" antler, would constitute any offence in law, only that it might constitute "theft" within the common use of that word. Further, you will have gathered that I approve of acknowledging the status of owners and other interested parties on the ground (from which one might liberate such items as "antlers") and prefer to see a showing of some courtesy rather than meekly accepting the... "wotcha gonna do about it anyway?" attitude, so prevalent within our society today. If that makes me seem like a "t#t" ... I can live with that.

I don't believe we will think any the lesser of you for breaking your vow now and I'm mildly confident that I've written enough for most people following this thread to be quite intrigued to hear what you might have to say. Best regards~Tom.

pitiliedon
05-05-2012, 18:31
I was always taught to leave cast antlers where they lay as they are an important form of calcium to the deer as they 'munch' on them....or is this just an old wives tale ??

Not only deer but rabbits and hares will gnaw at antler for the calcium. I have een watched a bison rolling a new cast antler around in his mouth like a lollypop and had ground it half upb the time he dropped it. I guess that hill cattle may do the same but have never seen it.