.257 Roberts, .260 Remington, .25-06

gitano

Well-Known Member
I have observed in recent posts what appears to be considerable interest in the .25-06 cartridge. I have absolutely no bone to pick with that cartridge, but I was wondering why the other two over-the-counter 'quarter-bores' - the .257 Roberts (6.3x57) and the .260 Remington (6.3x51) - seem to be getting so little consideration 'over there'. Seems to me, and forgive my ignorance if I'm missing something, that:

1) With the cost of powder,
2) The propensity of your FEOs to be ignorant of the realities of stalking firearms and ammunition, and
3) The ranges most of you report that you take deer,

that the .257 Roberts or .260 Remington would get at least some attention in the alternative to the .25-06.

Don't get me wrong. I think the .25-06 is a fine cartridge, it just seems to be cost ineffective (and less politically 'correct') in light of "your" (the collective "your") expressed needs and constraints.

I can appreciate that the .260 Remington might be a 'bad seller' carrying the reviled Remington name, (this is about the same silliness that keeps 'average' Americans from buying firearms chambered in the OUTSTANDING 8mm caliber just because it's "metric"). But the .257 Roberts (6.3x57) seems like a 'natural'. Less powder, no practical difference in external ballistics out to 300m, "friendlier" in the eyes of ignorant FEOs. What's not to like?

I'm not trying to talk anyone "out of" what they want to use, nor "in to" using 'something else'. I'm just curious about the attitudes that might be driving what appears to me to be a 'trend', and thought I'd start a discussion to see if I could understand the thinking a bit better.

For my two-pence-worth, I 'like' the .25 caliber "better" than the .243/6mm for everything but varmints, and yet the .243 seems to have a very substantial 'following' "over there".

Just wondering....

Regards,
Paul
 
A few basics here Paul.

260rem (God's own deer round) is a 6.5mm, not a quarter bore.

25/06 seems quite popular, but burns a lot more powder to achieve similar velocities to the 260rem in similar bullet weights.

I don't doubt the 257 Roberts is excellent - all rounds on the x57 mauser case are. However, I do doubt there are more than a dozen boxes of factory ammo for it in the UK.

Both the Bob and the 260 are killed by lack of decent factory ammo, both are strictly for handloaders.

So the 257 slot is filled with the 25/06 and for most shooters, the 6.5 slot is filled by the Swede.

The cranks on here like me who shoot 260's are pretty unrepresentative of the shooting public as a whole.
 
The 6.5-08 A square (AKA .260 rem) is probably just about the best balanced deer/general purpose cartridge for use in these sceptered isles and it would be recognised as such if all the others (especially the coyote shooters' choice, the .243win) weren't already so popular and well established.

The .25-06 is an overbore which just irritates me for using so much powder to do so little extra compared to the Bob, great cartridge of the world that it is, apparently.

"tuppence spent"
 
A few basics here Paul.

260rem (God's own deer round) is a 6.5mm, not a quarter bore.

25/06 seems quite popular, but burns a lot more powder to achieve similar velocities to the 260rem in similar bullet weights.

I don't doubt the 257 Roberts is excellent - all rounds on the x57 mauser case are. However, I do doubt there are more than a dozen boxes of factory ammo for it in the UK.

Both the Bob and the 260 are killed by lack of decent factory ammo, both are strictly for handloaders.

So the 257 slot is filled with the 25/06 and for most shooters, the 6.5 slot is filled by the Swede.

The cranks on here like me who shoot 260's are pretty unrepresentative of the shooting public as a whole.

Ahhhh forgive the correction but the calibre of the .260 Remington is actually 0.256" the calibre of the 25-06 is actually 0.246". Your talking bullet diameter once again. The 6.5x53R was known in Britian as the .256" Mannlicher before the European way of using bullet diameter was more widely adopted that is :confused:.

Now Gitano the 25-06 is also the 25-06 Remington and it's as you have noted quite widely accepted and even stocked in some gunshops but you try finding .257 Roberts ammunition :rolleyes:. Before Bremmer Arms closed Parker-Hale down to hide their illegal dealings they had set up a custom shop and they were supposed to be building me a .257 AI on a Springfield receiver. Lucky for me it all collasped before I had handed over any monies.

Part of the problem in the UK with the .257 Roberts is that it requires a M98 action length and does not have the holy grail :rolleyes: of a short action unlike the .260 Remington.

The reason the .243 is soooooooooooooo popular has nothing to do with the cartridges performance but that it's seen as the Minimum legal cartridge for deer in the UK and the Police just love that word minimum. Some Police have never heard of the 6mm Remington and despite it's performance being virtually identical to the .243 Win it has a longer case and so MUST be more powerful in the eyes of the Police so is never mentioned ;).

Now if .22 c/F was legal for all deer then the Police would be pushing the .22 Hornet as that's about the minimum in that line up. They have no care for humane dispatch only control and to that end I recall being told that I could not have a .303 Sporting rifle for deer stalking by Surrey as it was a military calibre and as such far too powerful.

My answer was Oh never mind I have been offered a 7.7mm to which the FEO said Hmm have never heard of that one :rolleyes: .......................... of course in metric 7.7x56R is .303 :D. Oh .308 was fine by the way :confused:.

It seems here in the UK that cartridges are fashionable or not. At the moment the .270 Win is still unfashionable hence a lot of dealers have some used ones sitting on the shelves/racks at very reasonable prices. The 25-06 as I recall suddenly became fashionable about 12-15 years ago then sort of tailed off. I recall bruce Potts buying one but he didn't keep it that long as he found that it didn't perform the way he thought it should. Working off memory now but I don't recall what he replaced it with. At that time Bruce belonged to the same rifle & Pistol club so we shot together failry often. This was back about the time he was filming that video:-

A year in the life of Roe Deer

and to buy the equipment needed he sold quite a few of his guns and it took two years to film that.
 
Ahhhh forgive the correction but the calibre of the .260 Remington is actually 0.256" the calibre of the 25-06 is actually 0.246". Your talking bullet diameter once again. The 6.5x53R was known in Britian as the .256" Mannlicher before the European way of using bullet diameter was more widely adopted that is :confused:.
CD can stand his own corner, but it's Ok, the rest of us can read and he didn't mention the word calibre. In fact he used the word "round".
 
I'm fairly sure that I've never actually seen a .257 Roberts on sale and in a gun rack in the U.K. nor do I remember seeing more than one .260 Remington for sale actually in the rack, though you do see the odd advertisment on occasion. .25-06 is probably the most popular of the three cartridges mentioned but most of us would be hard pressed to mention more than a couple of shooters who actually own one. As has been indicated British shooters for various reasons tend to restrict themselves or are restricted by availability to probably no more than about a dozen different cartridges.
 
brithunter

My 6th Edition of the Hornady reloading manual currently lists 136 different rifle calibres. I think it is very likely that if someone applies for one of the lesser well known or less commonly used calibres that the FEO will not have heard of it. In fact I wonder how many experts on here could actually name half of them.

You have also made a very wide generalisation regarding .243 as the minimum legal deer calibre in the UK. It most certainly is not in Scotland as we have the luxury of opting for .22CF for Roe although I do apprecuiate that although as you stated UK, you are no doubt referring to legislation South of the Border and to cover ALL species.

I do not agree with your reason as to why the .243 is sooooooooooo popular. A lot of people, including myself may simply be of the school of thought that, in actual fact a larger calibre is not NECESSARY to humanely kill all deer species in this country!

I have shot enough deer with .22-250, .25-06, .270, .308, .243 (including AI versions) to realise that every single one of those I have listed (except .22CF obviously only on roe) is more than enough gun for humane kills. I have NEVER shot deer and thought 'wish I had larger/faster calibre'. I have changed simply for the sake of it. Experimentation playing a part as well.

However, the facts are there that shows just how efficient the .243 is. As a simple comparison from my manuals, 3000fps from a 100grn .243 is a reasonable velocity to expect. At 200yds it will deliver 1437ftlbs energy to the target. A 6.5x55, one of the most popular calibres it seems on this site, when using a 129grn bullet appears to only muster up a maximum velocity of 2700fps at the muzzle. Therefore at 200yds it delivers 1528ftlbs energy. By my calculation that will be gain of 91ftlbs. WOW. And lets not worry about the .243 being slightly flatter in its trajectory because then we would have to give the 6.5 the thumbs up for bucking the wind better, however at up to 200yds (to some the recognised maximum reasonable stalking distance so often mentioned) it would not matter a jot.

The .260 granted, is delivering slightly more energy due to its slightly faster muzzle velocity for same bullet weight. Will the deer notice....
 
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Let's see:-

brithunter

My 6th Edition of the Hornady reloading manual currently lists 136 different rifle calibres. I think it is very likely that if someone applies for one of the lesser well known or less commonly used calibres that the FEO will not have heard of it. In fact I wonder how many experts on here could actually name half of them.

Ahhhh you calling cartridges calibres and there are not they are cartridges. Parker-Hale marked their barrels CAL .308 for instance not because it's correct but because they were aimed at the American market. the .308 Win is a .30 calibre ;). Oh yes and who claimed to be an expert?

You have also made a very wide generalisation regarding minimum legal deer calibre in the UK. It most certainly is not in Scotland as we have the luxury of opting for .22CF for Roe although I do apprecuiate that although as you stated UK, you are no doubt referring to legislation South of the Border.


In England and Wales now as you well know the .22 C/F can be used on CWD and Muntjac. They left Roe for some reason. As for the generalisation well read the posts on how many new shooters are restricted to .243 as their first rifle. Or when applying for a larget one are told not but you may have a .243. yes the Police like that word minimum. They also beleive it's their job to reduce the amount of legally held firearms. Note they never mention the illegal ones which they should be trying to reduce! Nope they go for us as the easy targets :mad:

I do not agree with your reason as to why the .243 is sooooooooooo popular. A lot of people, including myself may simply be of the school of thought that, in actual fact a larger calibre is not NECESSARY to humanely kill all deer species in this country!

I have shot enough deer with .22-250, .25-06, .270, .308, .243 (including AI versions) to realise that every single one of those I have listed (except .22CF obviously only on roe) is more than enough gun for humane kills. I have NEVER shot deer and thought 'wish I had larger/faster calibre'. I have changed simply for the sake of it. Experimentation playing a part as well.

However, the facts are there that shows just how efficient the .243 is. As a simple comparison from my manuals, 3000fps from a 100grn .243 is a reasonable velocity to expect. At 200yds it will deliver 1437ftlbs energy to the target. A 6.5x55, one of the most popular calibres it would appear on this site, when using a 129grn bullet appears to only muster up a maximum velocity of 2700fps at the muzzle. Therefore at 200yds it delivers 1528ftlbs energy. By my calculation that will be gain of 91ftlbs. WOW. And lets not worry about the .243 being slightly flatter in its trajectory because then we would have to give the 6.5 the thumbs up for bucking the wind better, however at up to 200yds (to some the recognised maximum reasonable stalking distance so often mentioned) it would not matter a jot.

The .260 granted, is delivering slightly more energy due to its slightly faster muzzle velocity for same bullet weight. Will the deer notice....

Hmmm well try running the 6.5x55 in a modern rifle at equal pressures to the .260 Rem rather than handicapping it. Oh and by the way Hodgdons in #26 claim that 46.0 grns of H4350 with a 129 Grn bullet gives 2944fps ;) and that's at the Swede's lower pressure rating. #26 does not have the .260 Rem in it. Also as you know 3000 fps with a 100 Grn bullet in the .243 is right at the top of it's pressure curve too. A lot fo factory ammo will be running at 2900 fps and not 3000 fps also you forget that quite a few .243's will not group the 100 grain bullets acceptably and as a 100 grain is the minimum accepted weight for ALL deer in Scotland that is a problem to quite a few stalkers. Now I happen to have both .243 Win and 6.5x55 :D but then I also have 6.5x53R and 6.5x54MS. I could also probably name a few cartridges that are not in the Hornady manual like the .303 Axite, .303 Magnum, .26 BSA Hi velocity, .280 Ross or .276 Dubiel for instance :p.
 
Brithunter

You are correct to point out my basic error in referring to them as calibres instead of cartridge configurations however, the fact remains that there are well over 100 possible variants of sporting cartridge choices that a FEO may be faced with. That was also the reason for using the EXPERT word. Not suggesting you or anyone else on here are self proclaimed as one but actually suggesting that some on here are very knowledgeable in this field (not me) and yet I think would also struggle to claim familiarity with some of those listed. But, the fact remains that when applying for authorisation, we do not get open certificates allowing us to acquire a .30cal up to whatever, or 7mm up to whatever. We are actually applying for a cartridge configuration, at least up in my neck of the woods. If my ticket says .243 and I tried to purchase a 6mmBR or .22-250 and went for .223 they would not wear it. So as I said, 136 variations...
I have often thought that this should be the way we are given permission. If we are vetted and cleared to use a .22-250, then allow us the choice of any .22CF legal for the conditions we are granted. The same for larger calibres (cartridges ;)) up to a maximum configuration i.e. .30cal up to say .30-06 and base the permission more on the maximum capable power of the larger cartridge variations. The smaller calibres (sorry, cartridges) in .22CF and 6mm I don't think would cause the same concerns. But, as you point out this would require far more specialist knowledge by the authorities but would make our life easier.

Your manual differs from mine. That's why I used mine because it benefits my argument:D However, you cannot claim I am being unfair by using the 6.5x55 figures I have because they are slower than yours and then doing the same referring to my much loved .243from your manual!!! 2700fps is the MAXIMUM load in Hornady manual for 129grn 6.5x55. Just as 3000fps is also MAXIMUM for .243 but I could argue that in my wee .243AI custom buid I can push beyond that listed. However, with 85grn Sierra BTHP I have hit the motherload!!! :D

For the record, my rifle was built with a 1 in 8 twist as I was only using 70grn+ bullets. However, I have not actually come across a rifle, others of mine or friends (and I have a few) that could not stabilise 100grn in their .243's. I have no idea what the twist rate was as they were factory rifles, but they coped and accurately so.

.303 Axite, .303 Magnum, .26 BSA Hi velocity, .280 Ross or .276 Dubiel for instance (your showing off now....)

You are also correct in what I know to be the case regarding .22CF legislation north and south of the border, but I am a Scotsman and proud of it. Of course I'm going to use this as an opportunity to have a wee dig at an Englishmans reference to the 'UK' and minimum calibre!!! ;)
 
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I have to agree with Jamrosse, the 243 stands on its own as a good rifle for UK use for a lot of stalkers, with 58gn bullets are awesome on foxes, it is quite possibly the idea caliber for roe deer, and if you are out for a roe and a fallow/red or Sika steps out you still have enough gun. Sure if you are after big stags then you want something bigger, but for females or roe it is perfect.

The 260 and the Roberts are really going to be custom builds as their are not many factory rifles available in these calibers. The cost of a custom build is not cheap, remember barrel prices over here are a lot more than in the USA and even our own Boarder Barrels charges us UK citizens more for there barrels than it does US citizens.

I thought to get the most out of the heavier bullets when using a 260 you needed a long action other wise you end up seating the bullet too deeply and lost case capacity. Any 260 owner care to comment?

So why is the 260 and 257 not more popular, no rifles available off the shelf, custom route expensive, and no factory ammo available? 25-06 rifles and ammo are available as for cartridge efficiency it is only the real anal that even think about it, I know if I mentioned it to a lot of the lads I stalk with they would look at me blank and “say so what”. When you look at the total cost of stalking, Leases, fuel, accommodation, scopes, bin’s, clothes, bullets, rifles, reloading equipment, good dogs, etc the extra cost of a extra 5gn of powder hardly bears thinking about.

ATB

Tahr
 
This has been an interesting post to follow, but for me has only hammered home the reality of firearms licensing in the UK.

The mere thought of putting in a Variation Application for a .257 Rob. or a .260 has to make anyone think twice. The FEO's reaction will be consternation. What on earth is that? He doesn't know it.....it's not on the list. Are you trying to make life difficult, or put one over the FLD? Does this perhaps have some extra lethal properties? He'll have to go and look it up. His manager won't rubberstamp it. It's not a 'one-for-one' or even an equivalent calibre . There'll be a sharp intake of breath.... eyebrows will be raised and lips pursed.... out of the norm. You just know it'll take twice as long. That's discouragement enough for anyone. Why not abandon these smart-arse notions, and go for one of the 'top ten' calibres.... see sense.

I don't think anyone outside of the UK has any idea of the obstacles facing us, or the overwhelming inertia within the licensing regime. This gives hobbyists abroad the idea that we are a bunch of peasants who are stuck in some time-warp. I had thought of ignoring this post, but couldn't resist a rant at the injustice.

Please don't post provocative posts like this, Gitano. These will shorten my life and curtail my shooting.
 
This has been an interesting post to follow, but for me has only hammered home the reality of firearms licensing in the UK.

The mere thought of putting in a Variation Application for a .257 Rob. or a .260 has to make anyone think twice. The FEO's reaction will be consternation. What on earth is that? He doesn't know it.....it's not on the list. Are you trying to make life difficult, or put one over the FLD? Does this perhaps have some extra lethal properties? He'll have to go and look it up. His manager won't rubberstamp it. It's not a 'one-for-one' or even an equivalent calibre . There'll be a sharp intake of breath.... eyebrows will be raised and lips pursed.... out of the norm. You just know it'll take twice as long. That's discouragement enough for anyone. Why not abandon these smart-arse notions, and go for one of the 'top ten' calibres.... see sense.

I don't think anyone outside of the UK has any idea of the obstacles facing us, or the overwhelming inertia within the licensing regime. This gives hobbyists abroad the idea that we are a bunch of peasants who are stuck in some time-warp. I had thought of ignoring this post, but couldn't resist a rant at the injustice.

Please don't post provocative posts like this, Gitano. These will shorten my life and curtail my shooting.

It's not always that bad over here, really it's not.

I went to Strathclyde Police and requested a 6.5-.284 on my FAC for vermin, deer, estate management and any other excuse for it to go bang, about six years ago. They first off tried to tell me I'd made I mistake in filling in my application. I pointed out that I hadn't and that Norma had put the cartridge through CIP standardisation in 1999, then they gave me a slot on my ticket for it, no problem. First one in Strathclyde, so Ma'am in charge at the time claimed. Turn around time about 10 days.
 
I was always told that the .25-06 is the thinking womans 6.5x55, 260, etc etc.

i think to compare the 25-06 with the 6.5 x 55 is wrong, really wrong. the 25-06 is death abd destruction all the way. flat shooting and hard hitting. the swede is nothing like it.
 
I currently own and shoot a 25-06, a Tikka M65 and have no intention of ever getting rid of it. I even have its replacement barrel sitting ready for when the one on it is worn out:

tikkam65.jpg

In20box1.jpg


My reasons for owning and shooting one are simple:
1. Its a tried and proven round that has lasted the test of time. I have friends in the US and Canada who have used one for decades - ballistically it makes sense. I have larger calibres which i use for larger game, but it's 'enough' gun for me, light enough to carry all day long and is a sweet shooter.
2. There is a ready supply of quality rifles out there for relatively little money in comparison to those rounds 'in vogue.' With each self-professed expert publishing a magazine article claiming that they and only they have found the next great round, a mass of lemmings rush to dump their perfectly fine rifles in favour of shelling out loads for the 'new' one. God forbid they actually learn to shoot well, what they have. Want an inexpensive stalking rifle, then search the gun racks for 270, 25-06 or 30-06. Want to pay silly money then mention 6.5x47, 6.5 creedmore, etc.
3. It is 'powder hungry' but brass and bullets are always readily available. In the rare occassions in which brass isn't in stock, i can just pass 270 or similar brass through my full length dies. Practically every company makes 25-06 brass although i do tend to stick to lapua.

Lastly, i did once own a 257 Roberts but soon passed it on. Although a perfectly good woodland stalking round i found it lacking when occassionally pushing the distance and it could be a pain to assemble components. I never did own any original 257 bob brass, rather i collected and re-sized 7x57 Mauser (which wasn't always easy to find).

My one regret with the 25-06 is that i can't have a Hornady A-Max bullet in 25cal.
 
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