grouping !

tackb

Well-Known Member
2 rounds is not a group its a coincidence !

the only true way to test your rifle , ammo and personal ability is to get down and group your rifle/ammo combination 3rds minimum 5 is better and 10 even better !

once you've grouped you have a benchmark against which to measure your improvement ? I for example from a bench can manage 1/2" groups sometimes , the limit is not my equipment but me ! but i also know that prone from a bipod i can group 1" 95% of the time which suits me for stalking , obviously those groups get larger as my position deteriorates from prone to sitting to kneeling to standing etc

basically what I'm saying everyone is , were delighted to see your groups , this is a shooting forum afterall ! but please put in 5 shots is that really so hard ?

:D
 
​Seems that time changes things. In Col Whelen's day a 10 shot group was the norm.

As I believe I mentioned before when testing loads I use 3 shots as an indicator of which loads are worth pursuing and continuing with then do more testing with 5 round groups. Once I am happy then will often then do a "Master" target test and get a composite group of at least 25 sots on one "master" target with the groups shot over a period of time and at different times of day and in different weather condition. This shows the TRUE potential of the load, rifle and myself I can expect in the field.
 
if you shoot good, then two rounds is all you need to check your rifle and ammo combination. After that your just throwing lead and money down range, it's not a grouping as such but you shouldn't need to throw 5-10 bullets down range to know if a setup is sound. You'd know that after the first 2 bullets because they'd either be in the same place or not.
 
if you shoot good, then two rounds is all you need to check your rifle and ammo combination. After that your just throwing lead and money down range, it's not a grouping as such but you shouldn't need to throw 5-10 bullets down range to know if a setup is sound. You'd know that after the first 2 bullets because they'd either be in the same place or not.

yes maybe to check a proven combination and even then i'd go for the third shot personally ?
 
I generally fired 20 - 40 rounds in three shot groups (hunting rifles) of the same load before I pronounce it's accuracy. Ten shots? Not in a light weight hunting rifle. You start heating the barrel and induce shooter fatigue. (no mods here!) If I fire ten or twelve 3 shot groups I think I can get a good idea of the accuracy of the load.~Muir
 
2 rounds is not a group its a coincidence !

the only true way to test your rifle , ammo and personal ability is to

I find shooting stuff of benches tedious in the extreme. I bore easily
I rarely shoot more than one or two to check zero, more interested in seeing where the thing lands at various ranges or conditions

What is interesting is that people can shoot a touching 3, 5 or 10 shot group from a bagged bench and then struggle to hit a 4-6" bull in a simulated stalking environment from prone, knees/sitting/kneeling, sticks/standing or if that monster buck/stag presents a fleeting chance of a shot before disappearing into the trees.
Plenty of DSC candidates fail the rifle test with a bigger target than they would zero on.
 
I find shooting stuff of benches tedious in the extreme. I bore easily
I rarely shoot more than one or two to check zero, more interested in seeing where the thing lands at various ranges or conditions

What is interesting is that people can shoot a touching 3, 5 or 10 shot group from a bagged bench and then struggle to hit a 4-6" bull in a simulated stalking environment from prone, knees/sitting/kneeling, sticks/standing or if that monster buck/stag presents a fleeting chance of a shot before disappearing into the trees.
Plenty of DSC candidates fail the rifle test with a bigger target than they would zero on.

I said get down and group your rifle/ammo combination , bench also bores me but it has it's place in testing to eliminate as far as possible the fleshy weak link ?

there is no substitute for getting rounds down range which leads me neatly back to bigger than two shot groups to prove a new load........
 
I find shooting stuff of benches tedious in the extreme. I bore easily
I rarely shoot more than one or two to check zero, more interested in seeing where the thing lands at various ranges or conditions

What is interesting is that people can shoot a touching 3, 5 or 10 shot group from a bagged bench and then struggle to hit a 4-6" bull in a simulated stalking environment from prone, knees/sitting/kneeling, sticks/standing or if that monster buck/stag presents a fleeting chance of a shot before disappearing into the trees.
Plenty of DSC candidates fail the rifle test with a bigger target than they would zero on.
shooting groups from a good solid rest proves your rifle and load is consistant,shooting off sticks or free hand is a totally different situation which you will get errors,hence its best to start with an accurate well developed load which you know groups well as any movement will be less when shooting in the field.
practice makes perfect,as to taking only 2 shots to test your rig is a bit irresponsable when shooting at live animals
 
Ithere is no substitute for getting rounds down range which leads me neatly back to bigger than two shot groups to prove a new load........

I suppose I mean zeroing rather than load development. fair enough if you are looking for a consistent load
but after that how much checking do you need to be confident?

shooting groups from a good solid rest proves your rifle and load is consistant,shooting off sticks or free hand is a totally different situation which you will get errors,hence its best to start with an accurate well developed load which you know groups well as any movement will be less when shooting in the field.
practice makes perfect,as to taking only 2 shots to test your rig is a bit irresponsable when shooting at live animals

You could shoot 5 shot groups, hell even 10 shot groups and still be not be 100% confident that the next one won't be a flyer. bad primer, loading error, stiffer neck brass in one case, gust of wind, bird flies into the bullet path, fly goes in your ear, deer moves, lightning strikes the barrel etc etc
you are getting into a statisticians wet dream trying to reduce spreads.

The point was spending hours on the range "practicing" shooting 10 shot groups off bench bags is fine if that is your goal but if the one that counts is the one off a fence post, off hand or sticks, with rain running down you neck and a deer that is shifting position, your bench rest range time counts for diddly squat.
The first cold bore shot in the field off the position most likely to be shot from is the one that counts. if you want to practice, practice that.
If you can't replicate that on different days in different conditions then I would say that is irresponsible. you don't get to average out that poor shot with 4 good ones on a deer

I knew two guys who could smash clays at 50 yds and only use the second barrel to break the big bits. spent hours at the clay ground
couldn't hit half the real pigeons presented to them at 20-30yds though.... they don't fly in straight lines or constantly reducing speeds!
Same as the DSC1 tests that people fail.
They shoot all day long in the comfort of their own field from a solid rest and then under pressure with onlookers and from positions they don't practice (but are expected to shoot deer from) they manage to miss a 6" target.
 
I suppose I mean zeroing rather than load development. fair enough if you are looking for a consistent load
but after that how much checking do you need to be confident?



You could shoot 5 shot groups, hell even 10 shot groups and still be not be 100% confident that the next one won't be a flyer. bad primer, loading error, stiffer neck brass in one case, gust of wind, bird flies into the bullet path, fly goes in your ear, deer moves, lightning strikes the barrel etc etc
you are getting into a statisticians wet dream trying to reduce spreads.

The point was spending hours on the range "practicing" shooting 10 shot groups off bench bags is fine if that is your goal but if the one that counts is the one off a fence post, off hand or sticks, with rain running down you neck and a deer that is shifting position, your bench rest range time counts for diddly squat.
The first cold bore shot in the field off the position most likely to be shot from is the one that counts. if you want to practice, practice that.
If you can't replicate that on different days in different conditions then I would say that is irresponsible. you don't get to average out that poor shot with 4 good ones on a deer

I knew two guys who could smash clays at 50 yds and only use the second barrel to break the big bits. spent hours at the clay ground
couldn't hit half the real pigeons presented to them at 20-30yds though.... they don't fly in straight lines or constantly reducing speeds!
Same as the DSC1 tests that people fail.
They shoot all day long in the comfort of their own field from a solid rest and then under pressure with onlookers and from positions they don't practice (but are expected to shoot deer from) they manage to miss a 6" target.
that's all well and good BUT don't you make sure you have a good solid rest before taking a shot at something live ?? or do you just poke at it and hope you have hit it in the right place ???
 
that's all well and good BUT don't you make sure you have a good solid rest before taking a shot at something live ?? or do you just poke at it and hope you have hit it in the right place ???

I wouldn't class standing an shooting free hand as a SOLID rest but plenty of people still manage very humane and accurate shots this way. What about shooting running boar etc

once again it all comes down to practice and personal skill an what you are comfortable with. If a person only ever practice from a bipod then I'd imagine they'd not be 100% comfortable taking a 100m shot standing unsupported.
 
a basic fundamental aspect of rifle shooting is to be able to group , it's one of the first things taught after safety.
 
that's all well and good BUT don't you make sure you have a good solid rest before taking a shot at something live ?? or do you just poke at it and hope you have hit it in the right place ???

I make sure I am comfortable and confident the bullet lands where I want it to,
depends what you call "solid",
big difference between bipod/bags on a bench and twin sticks leaning on a tree.

you also need to be able to shoot at a target with a moving reticule. squeeze as the reticule crosses the target

here is one for you.
driven boar. rifle/ammo needs to be accurate but no amount of bench time will help you when the fever kicks in and the hairy hogs are crossing your lane!
 
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