M39 Finnish nagant markings help

schaafman

Well-Known Member
Dear all.

So I finally go my hands on this Finn B barrel M39, it has some really weird markings, can anyone help identify?

1. Swirl stamp on receiver next to 7.62x54r
2. Weird eagle or flag stamp both on barrel and reciever, and also on the bolt extractor
3. Numbers '196' next to some sort of cartouche or shield

I don't recognise any of these markings and I can't find anything similar during online searches, help would be cool.

best

james
 

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No idea about the swirl stamp or shield, maybe inspection marks or import/export stamps.

However the Eagle stamps look like a German Nitro proof mark google it. I wander if it came through Germany at some stage? Or maybe was assembled there as if memory serves me the B barrels were made in Belgium and the Germans helped the Finns during the Winter war.

I must say I would love to have a Finnish Nagant you're a lucky man.
 
Snagman, thanks for the feedback. Yep the B marked barrel is made by FN, but those weird looking marks both on the receiver and barrel look to be matching, so who ever put them on there must have assembled the rifle? I've googled every permutation of Finnish, Belgian and german proof marks and none match those two little marks which look to be a globe with two flags sticking out of it with some sort of numeral at the base? Also that bizarre swirl/rifling mark is very boggling! I've never seen anything like it.

If anyone else can help shed some light it would be great!

best

james
 
Snag man,

yup you nailed it, those marks on the barrel and receiver are german nitro proofs! I've attached an example.


image.jpg

cheers

james


No idea about the swirl stamp or shield, maybe inspection marks or import/export stamps.

However the Eagle stamps look like a German Nitro proof mark google it. I wander if it came through Germany at some stage? Or maybe was assembled there as if memory serves me the B barrels were made in Belgium and the Germans helped the Finns during the Winter war.

I must say I would love to have a Finnish Nagant you're a lucky man.
 
Looks like your gun was assembled in Suhl Germany schaafman or at least been throught the proof house here's a link to CIP proof stamps.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/20061004/imco/genco_en.pdf

page 16 look at the Suhl shield I'm sure that is what is stamped there on the 3rd picture with the Nitro proof and number above it which must be the rifles ID.

I'm still looking into the swirl mark but that's giving me some problems.
 
Snagman,

thanks for for your research mate, this rifle is a really messed up little beast! It's a Russian/Belgian made, german contracted, Finnish rifle? What they he'll lead to all of these nations working on one gun?

do you think at one point that this was a Russian capture taken to Germany and then the Finns contracted Suhl to produce them to their specs for the continuation war?

this is what I love about some of these old battle rifles, the weird history is awesome!

james
 
I still have no idea about the swirl mark mate but as for it's history hmmmm I'm no expert I just love old guns especially the Finnish Mosins.

If I was to guess judging from the fact that there's a VKT stamp with the number 3600 on the left side of the barrel and depending on the serial number it might have been produced in Germany sometime during WW2 maybe late 1940 or 41-42 so it is possible that it might have been assembled in Germany. The German proof marks look period from the photo as the one on the barrel is the correct colour so applied before finishing.

The '196' number is very interesting if I was to guess I might say there could have been a small consignment of 200 rifles assembled out of Finland as a trail..... maybe, it's pure speculation, however VKT were apparently having difficulties keeping up production so who knows.

Would it be possible for some more picture of the rifle especially the bolt and receiver as it could help date the action, generally there are stamps on the underside of the bolt handle somewhere.
 
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Also another quick though what's the overall condition of the rifle has it seen use or is it unissued as I think a few were made from unissued surplus in the 70's and it may have gone through Germany then. My thoughts are that to have the German Nitro proofs and the Suhl stamp that it was either produced/assembled during the war or a long time after as post war Germany would not have been making Military arms for the Finns due to the Russian presence at the time.
 
It may have been used as a post war constabulary rifle for the German police. (have seen Carcano's so marked) The 3600 is the pressure proofing on later Finns. I have one of those "sneak" rifles made in the late 60's and early 70's. These were target rifles and used domestically.~Muir
 
image.jpgimage.jpgSnagman,

see attached further images of the rifle. Barrel is dated 1942 and is mint, I don't think it's been fired, the bore is very clean and sharp, even the magazine follower doesn't have any tell tale scraped from chambering rounds from the mag.

james
 

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Hey Muir,

sorry for for total ignorance, but what exactly is a Sneak rifle? Is it a .308 MN?

james



It may have been used as a post war constabulary rifle for the German police. (have seen Carcano's so marked) The 3600 is the pressure proofing on later Finns. I have one of those "sneak" rifles made in the late 60's and early 70's. These were target rifles and used domestically.~Muir
 
Muir might have something there certainly it would explain the good condition of the rifle and the German stamps as I'm sure the German authorities would have required it to be proofed before use, and it might explain the number on it as well.

Having seen a couple more numbers of the serial I would suggest that it was a Wartime manufacture about midway through the run by the Finnish Arsenal VKT. Here's a small excerpt from Mosinnagant.net where there's lots of good info on Mosins of all colours.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The "B" barrel rifles have a serial number range of the low of 23,294 to a high of 48,978. All have 1942 dates[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Also the receiver is an old Russian Hex type, I wonder what the date is on that? It might even be an Imperial [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]receiver which would be cool.

The scope mount looks more modern especially that shiny new screw has it come with a scope Schaafman? But the wood cutout looks period so maybe a replacement screw?
[/FONT]
 
Snagman,

I'm not at home now until the new year, but last night I had it in bits and made some notes! The scope mount has 196 stamped on the body and both rings it also has an antler or weird squiggle stamp under ZEISS in italics. There is obvious scrubbing of previous imperial eagle on the top of the hex receiver, removing it from the stock on the tang at the back end of the receiver there looks to be an R in a circle which has been then been overstamped with a capital E with a bow and arrow under it?

I removed the the scope mount from the receiver and comparing it to my dads m91 sniper, the drilled and tapped holes look to match with the traditional Russian PU scope mounts - perhaps it once had Russian mounts and optics and was swapped out during its life In Germany for german optics/mounts.

I do need to mention that I bought this rifle in Germany through guns.de, perhaps this is a big piece of the puzzle which may shed light and support its proposed history!

The serial on the barrel is 36069, this is also on the magazine and last 4 digits on the bolt knob.


i will send more pics In the new year!

ja ES
 
No rush mate have a good New Year but to peak your interest the "R" in a circle generally indicates a Remington Mosin Nagant produced for the Imperial Russian military and the Bow and Arrow depending on the stamp is a pre 1928 Izhevsk arsenal stamp!!! What kind of Franken rifle did you stumble on!!!
 
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Snagman,

after erg looking closer at the pics I took on my phone, the receiver is definitely R inside a circle, and the bow and arrow is actually crossed cannons. So I think the receiver is American made for imperial Russia. What a story!

james
 
This is a great thread, exploring the history and origins of this rifle is facinating and I will be following with great interest. Regards sbm
 
I am going to be speaking with Dr. Richard Preuss, the chap who organised the import papers for this rifle from Germany to the UK, and look to get his opinions and expert knowledge about this odd rifle, he is a collector and probably has a great deal of knowledge with regards to German influences on firearms of the last century.

will keep all posted.

james

This is a great thread, exploring the history and origins of this rifle is facinating and I will be following with great interest. Regards sbm
 
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Seibassman7

can an you shed any light on the rifling/spiral stamp on the receiver? This is one which is boggling everyone I know!

james
 
I'm guessing it is an importer's mark. That with the receiver marked caliber designation of "7.62x54R" seem recent additions. Could be wrong; hard to say what and where this rifle has seen and been.

The original date of manufacture for the Russian receiver is on the underside of the tang. It will be in 2 digit form.~Muir
 
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