FAC "closed" conditions

MrMickeyD

Well-Known Member
Hi guys,
I'm looking out for some new stalking and foxing atm, but i could do with learning how the condition on my FAC should be met in different situations. The exact wording i have is " .......land deemed suitable by the Chief...."

FAC condition copy.jpg

So, scenario a) A local farmer gives me permission to shoot. This seems easy enough - i contact FLO to as if said farm has been signed off for my caliber, if it hasn't then i request inspection. Does the FLO, at this stage, need my "permission to shoot" letter? or just the address and the cal i want to shoot?
Scenario b) I pay for an accompanied stalk on unknown bit of land. Do i just ask the stalker if land is signed off and take his word for it? or would my condition not matter as i am accompanied by someone whom (i assume) would have an "open" fac?
Scenario c) I'm invited to join a syndicate which shoots on half a dozen different farms/estates, at different locations, across a couple of counties. Can it be assumed that all the land would have been signed off as it is syndicate land (for .243 for example, i realise that land can be signed off for some cals and not others) or would i need to obtain the list of land from the club and forward to my flo to investigate?
What do you think? I'm not trying to make up awkward situations, i'm sure these happen all the time - i just need a bit of clarity.Thanks, Mike
 
A-C. In all three circumstances you need to check with the licensing bureau to ascertain if the land is cleared for your calibre and also supply written permission.
If no inspection has taken place then your FEO will inspect the land.
B. For paid stalking you may have to use an estate rifle, but check with the bureau.
C. you may have to contact bureaus in the other counties.


http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/5E0134CC-58CC-4FEE-8F2C528EAF147301

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/DA699808-C3D6-4F31-B276B6BAC5B0B933
Paragraph 5.
 
Hi

I wouldn't assume anything. If your using a estate rifle then your under your guides guidance. If your using your rifle on a place you haven't shot before, simply ask the guide/farmer/land owner is this land cleared for this caliber, if they say yes then that's great crack on, if there in doubt check with FLO.

If you can't find out weather land is cleared then check with your FLO. I've done this a few times and it's been very easy. Each time I given the name, address and phone for the land owner etc. The address of the location. I have given O/S grid ref, longitude and latitude and even a link to google maps. I have listed the hazards and of course what I'll be using and shooting at. Each time I've had a email back and FLO has said fine crack on.
 
Ask the land owner. If they are sure the land has been checked there is no need to check with the licencing department of the local police force. Ditto the stalker. Of course, it's often worth phoning them regarding land that you know to be clear, as it will be recorded as a request against your licence and may help with getting the certificate opened up at a later date.
 
For a new permission I always ring the local FLO to check.
Both landowner and local officers can get it wrong - I once wrote a plan for a farmer, they took it to the local country police station. (to confirm the land was cleared)
Civvie on the desk called the station sgt, farmer explained it was about shooting deer on his land and the sgt said he didn't need to see any plan, it was the farmers land and he could give permission to anyone to shoot on his land. (Senior Police Officer requirement reduced, in an instant, to an irrelevance)
:doh:
Oh how I and the FLO concerned laughed.:lol:
 
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Archer, this is true, and if there's any doubt then talking to the local office is the best plan. However, I'd say if the answer to "has this land been checked by the police as safe" is an unequivocal yes then you have exercised due dilligence in ensuring you do not breach the conditions on your certificate. If you can get them to sign a piece of paper saying that it's been checked you're doubly covered.
 
Archer, this is true, and if there's any doubt then talking to the local office is the best plan. However, I'd say if the answer to "has this land been checked by the police as safe" is an unequivocal yes then you have exercised due dilligence in ensuring you do not breach the conditions on your certificate. If you can get them to sign a piece of paper saying that it's been checked you're doubly covered.

I understand what you are saying about due dilligence and agree, but for me, not being 100% certain would always be an "itch" that needed scratching .
 
As I said earlier Archer, I'd normally phone them up, and ask them to note the enquiry on my file, if only to prove that I have lots of shooting and improve my case for having the restrictive condition removed as soon as possible, but it's not NECESSARY to do it if you are reasonably sure that the ground has already been checked. When my first permission was checked the FEO spoke to the land owner and explained that the land was now cleared, and that she could tell people so if they asked, rather than them having to contact the police.
 
Jack is on the mark and has supplied the correct advice in my experience. A closed certificate means the FLO will want to be satisfied you are shooting on suitable land and it substantiates your 'good reason'. In the first five years of your licence you must supply letters of permission on the land you will shoot a Section 1 weapon and that includes paid stalking events, although an e-mail or receipt will do. To judge the land suitability a letter is not required but will be requested and attached to your record. Beyond the five years you should be able to judge the land with verbal permission yourself. The guidelines judge the man not the weapon in these circumstances I believe.
 
Beyond the five years you should be able to judge the land yourself.
It isn't the land that increases or decreases risk. It is the nature of the shot taken. If the FLD think you can't tell a safe shot from a dengerous one, they should not really have issued you with a FAC. For anything.

The guidelines judge the man not the weapon in these circumstances I believe.
Apart from the judgement coming from the FLD rather than the Guidelines, I agree: and would add that just as it isn't weapon, it isn't the land being judged in any meaningful way either. Which as you say, leaves us with the man.
That leaves us wondering why the the man holds a FAC if can't tell a safe shot from a dangerous one: the answer to which question is, I think, that FAC-holders generally can tell the difference, and that territorial conditions other than in exceptional conditions are, like specific quarry conditions, an example of the FLDs wasting taxpayers' money trying pointlessly to restrict FAC-holders lawful freedom.
 
Also make sure that your land owner is happy with the police coming out to check to his land many dont like the intrusion, i have actually lost land because of this when i had a closed ticket, on one occasion plod turned up unannounced to check a piece of land and was promptly told to **** off.
Make your landowner aware of the situation and ask him if it is alright for your FEO to check the land and make sure you are with him and your landowner knows when you are on the land.

Ian.
 
You'd think that having just passed DSC1, I'd be up to speed with this, but here goes. I take it that if a piece of land has been deemed as suitable for a 243, that doesn't mean that it's OK to use your 270 for instance? I realise that just because it seems insane doesn't mean that it's not true, but do they really need to visit every piece of land every time someone buys a new rifle?

Specifically, suppose I paid for some stalking and wanted to bring a 270, would it be the case that I'd have to use the estate rifle because the land was only approved for a 308 and a 7mm08?
 
Pine marten,
Land is not normaly cleared for a specific calibre but usually up to a calibre ie. if the land is cleared for up to 243 then any other calibre smaller then 243 can be used.

Ian.
 
Where does the "first 5 years" suggestion I saw posted earlier come into it?
My cert has just been amended to open status after one year, admittedly I only have .22LR

Further to another earlier post: Farmers have enough inspections to contend with, without this as well. Some will be put off giving you permission if it means a police land check. This is why my cert was changed to open - because my neighbours whose land I have permission to shoot over didn't want the hassle of an inspection or putting stuff in writing.
 
Whereabouts’ does it state you have to supply letters for the first 5 years?
I have a territorial ticket July 2011with conditions removed October 2011, I emailed the chief FAO the address and post codes of 3 farms I recently got permission to shoot over, I called him a month later and he said, those farms are ok to shoot on with my .243.
I named 4 other farms on my application as they all belong to the same farmer.

Regards

Tim .243
 
Where does the "first 5 years" suggestion I saw posted earlier come into it?
My cert has just been amended to open status after one year, admittedly I only have .22LR

Further to another earlier post: Farmers have enough inspections to contend with, without this as well. Some will be put off giving you permission if it means a police land check. This is why my cert was changed to open - because my neighbours whose land I have permission to shoot over didn't want the hassle of an inspection or putting stuff in writing.

well said 100% true
 
I have also found this. A couple of farms have given me permission to shoot, but as soon as you say you need a FEO to come out to sign off the land for the cal, they are put off and the written permission never materializes. Its a real pain for the new FAC holder as open status may be refused if you can't prove your shooting experience with permissions, but permissions are often refused due to the extra hoops to jump through...
 
I also found this a problem, of 3 written permissions I submitted with my first FAC application 2 subsequently refused to allow the FEO on the land to sign it off as suitable. This left me with just 1 small peice of land to shoot on. Fortunately I managed to get permission on a previously cleared farm shortly afterwards, now after having my FAC opened for my rimfires I can shoot on the land where I originally obtained permission. I managed to have my FAC opened after 2 years, I suspect the confused reference to 5 years derives from the practice of some issuing constabularies opening up FACs automatically after being held for a full term of 5 years.
+1 on Dalua comments, its not the land thats safe its the person that's holding the weapon, and if that person can't be considered safe then why has an FAC been issued.
 
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