DSC 1, BASC and the Police

scrun63

Well-Known Member
Although no longer a member BASC still send me their magazine. In Jan/Febs issue I saw an article entitled " Stalking made easy". I thought great, i might pick up some new tip or the magic way. But to my disappointment it was no more than blantent advertising for the DSC1. Now i've got DSC1 and learn't a lot, so i'm not anti DSC. However what really annoyed me was the fact the second paragraph stated "Increasingly police forces are requesting it (DSC1) as a condition of granting an FAC for deer management.............". DSC should be an option, not a requirement. Having read many of the threads on SD my understanding is that the police have no right to request or demand anyone wishing to aquire an FAC for stalking to undergo DSC training as a requirement for granting it. If this statement is correct then why are BASC accepting that the police can require it and even more than that signing up to the police position rather than fighting for stalkers in general and their own stalking members in particular ?
 
Why ??

Well I don't suppose BASC make money from the training course and materials, plus you have to be a member to attend one of their courses !

I am not anti it either, but let face it, anything to do with shooting and any other leisure activity is big business and about making money !

Simple really.

Cheers + ATVB

Philip
 
If this statement is correct then why are BASC accepting that the police can require it and even more than that signing up to the police position rather than fighting for stalkers in general and their own stalking members in particular ?

Maybe BASC might like to respond - although you might note where they stand with regard to the promotion and administration of DSC and the DI.
 
Its true Mike did his DSC level 1 and learnt allot on the course, he has not done much stalking in the past.

We don’t have to tell you guys that the police in several areas are asking for DSC 1 or other conditions, before grant or variation and not always along the line that the HO guidance intended – i.e. only apply such conditions when the alternative would be a refusal.

Yes we agree unreservedly that DSC1 should be an option, not compulsory.

As you know we and the NGO are working hard on the licensing issue at the moment, not just in terms of fees but also in terms of fair , consistent and efficient application of the firearms act for grants variations and renewals across the UK, something that we don’t have at the moment!

Regards to all
David
 
David,

I understand what you are saying but it goes no way to allaying the fears of the average person trying to get into stalking, BASC and the NGO may well be involved in the future debate about fees and fairness across the board, but what about the level 1 requirement fiasco. I rather suspect that the requirement of level 1 to be in place before the grant of a FAC was not the work of ACPO but of some high flyer intent on furthering their career, and since it was not challenged robustly has now slipped into accepted use.

I would hope that the matter of level 1 as a requirement is on the agenda in these discussions
As you know we and the NGO are working hard on the licensing issue at the moment, not just in terms of fees but also in terms of fair , consistent and efficient application of the firearms act for grants variations and renewals across the UK, something that we don’t have at the moment

John
 
David,

I understand what you are saying but it goes no way to allaying the fears of the average person trying to get into stalking, BASC and the NGO may well be involved in the future debate about fees and fairness across the board, but what about the level 1 requirement fiasco. I rather suspect that the requirement of level 1 to be in place before the grant of a FAC was not the work of ACPO but of some high flyer intent on furthering their career, and since it was not challenged robustly has now slipped into accepted use.

I would hope that the matter of level 1 as a requirement is on the agenda in these discussions

John

My point exactly - tho I wanted someone else to say it rather than me as the poster. Personally I think it's in BASC 's interest that the DSC is ENFORCED by the police as a requirement, hence there's no incentive - except perhaps from their FUNDING members who are the ones who will be mosy effected by BASCs intransience :doh:,

AND I REITERATE before anyone jumps to conclusions, I thought the DSC 1was excellent and taught me a lot, so i'm NOT anti DSC per sa, just being compelled to do it

Andrew
 
Personally, I think there should be compulsory training for those wishing to manage deer.

Independant testing, not by accredited witness's or "mentors" out to line their pockets.

But a National Deer Stalking Certificate of competance, which one must achieve before obtaining a firearm for the purpose of deer control.


Run and regulated by a gov agency, long the lines of european hunters tests - strict pass or fail.

No coaching on the range, no help with questions or safety test, onus on the candidate to get to the required level and show commitment to learn the basics.


Having knowledge of several incidents (which I will not go into on the forum) involving newly "trained" stalkers to DSC1 level only affirms my view (these incidents involved people both on their own and in the company of mentors).


I anticipate this view will not be popular,,,,
 
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I rather suspect that the requirement of level 1 to be in place before the grant of a FAC was not the work of ACPO but of some high flyer intent on furthering their career, and since it was not challenged robustly has now slipped into accepted use.
HHHMMNNnnn!, I think we've been here before!:doh:
 
Personally, I think there should be compulsory training for those wishing to manage deer.

Independant testing, not by accredited witness's or "mentors" out to line their pockets.

But a National Deer Stalking Certificate of competance, which one must achieve before obtaining a firearm for the purpose of deer control.


Run and regulated by a gov agency, long the lines of european hunters tests - strict pass or fail.

No coaching on the range, no help with questions or safety test, onus on the candidate to get to the required level and show commitment to learn the basics.


Having knowledge of several incidents (which I will not go into on the forum) involving newly "trained" stalkers to DSC1 level only affirms my view (these incidents involved people both on their own and in the company of mentors).


I anticipate this view will not be popular,,,,
Funny how some, over here, look on foreign qualifications, personally I would have no qualms taking on someone with the Jagdschein or similar from the Scandinavian countries!
 
Its true Mike did his DSC level 1 and learnt allot on the course, he has not done much stalking in the past.

We don’t have to tell you guys that the police in several areas are asking for DSC 1 or other conditions, before grant or variation and not always along the line that the HO guidance intended – i.e. only apply such conditions when the alternative would be a refusal.

Yes we agree unreservedly that DSC1 should be an option, not compulsory.

As you know we and the NGO are working hard on the licensing issue at the moment, not just in terms of fees but also in terms of fair , consistent and efficient application of the firearms act for grants variations and renewals across the UK, something that we don’t have at the moment!

Regards to all
David
The H O Guidance is in fact much clearer :-10.28 The consideration of good reason will
be crucial to consideration of applications,
and this is covered in detail in Chapter 13.
“Good reason” should be neither confined
to need nor equated with desire. Most
firearm certificate holders possess firearms
for reasons of their profession, sport or
recreation, and may properly wish to exercise
discretion as to what types of firearms they
choose for these purposes
. On the other
hand, a simple wish to own a particular sort
of firearm is not in itself “good reason”
without further supporting evidence of
intentions. Chief officers of police should be
mindful of case law (Anderson v Neilans (1940)
and Joy v Chief Constable of Dumfries and
Galloway (1966)) which suggests that the chief
officer should consider the application firstly
“from the standpoint of the applicant rather
than from that of a possible objector”.

“Good reason” will need to be demonstrated
for each firearm to be held under section 1
of the 1968 Act.

IMO this means no compulsory DSC1 for deer stalking and in my personal opinion I very much doubt that anyone at Hampshire Police takes any notice of this part of the guidance anyway. atb Tim
 
Hi all

The thing everyone misses it's guidance so they can just give it a good ignoring to just as they do the "any other legal quarry".
What our shooting organisations should be looking for is national, concistent rules that all police forces are to abide by.

Cheers

Dickie
 
Dickie - spot on and that what we and the NGO are fighting for!

John, yes I agree and should have made that point in my first post.

David
 
The article on DSC 1 was thinly veiled advert (like scrun63 I am not agin it, even if you do meet some dodgy geezers on the assessment day ;) )

But the BASC mag is turning into a big advert where it is getting more difficult to separate the editorial from the adverts. In this current issue

Freezy rider - Honda
Big bang theories - Blatant Eley
 
a lad in the next village , who is a bit odd , was told he couldnt have a deer caliber as he was inexperienced so he put in for a 223 and it was granted , so he couldnt have a rifle to use between dawn and dusk as he wasnt deemed suitable but he was good enough to wang bullets about in the dark ! a couple of years later he got his deer caliber . Im with Redmist , bring in some sort of test for all
 
Each police force develops its own policy WRT FAC and deer so one force may require DSC1 whereas another will not.
DSC1 is a classroom exercise apart from the shooting test, like taking a driving test, you learn after you have passed, hopefully without any accidents.
I had to ask many questions after I passed DSC1, eg how to gralloch, skin and butcher.
Fortunately an experienced stalker helped me out.

I'd be interested to know what Alan Booth or Mike Eveleigh (BASC firearms advisors) say in response to the BASC advert.
 
Personally, I think there should be compulsory training for those wishing to manage deer.

Independant testing, not by accredited witness's or "mentors" out to line their pockets.

But a National Deer Stalking Certificate of competance, which one must achieve before obtaining a firearm for the purpose of deer control.


Run and regulated by a gov agency, long the lines of european hunters tests - strict pass or fail.

No coaching on the range, no help with questions or safety test, onus on the candidate to get to the required level and show commitment to learn the basics.


Having knowledge of several incidents (which I will not go into on the forum) involving newly "trained" stalkers to DSC1 level only affirms my view (these incidents involved people both on their own and in the company of mentors).


I anticipate this view will not be popular,,,,
Hi All
If all you high faluting "deer managers" want to set yourself up to get ripped off for hundreds of pounds for bits of paper confirming how good you are, carry on but leave me out of this. I have been shooting deer now for about 25 yrs and i have never sold a deer to a game dealer, every one that i have shot either me or my friends have eaten it.I am a hunter and am happy to stay one.Over the last few years i have met quite a few people who have taken dsc1 and overnight have become deer managers and this has now become the new buzz phrase to appease the PC brigade. I know "deer managers" that have to get out "managing the deer" because they have become greedy and they are so used to the £30 or £40 x 4 or 5 carcuss money every time they visit the game dealer.The day i have to pay to shoot a deer,pigeon,fox,rabbit,rat or squirrel i will sell my guns and jack it all in
Geordie
 
The day i have to pay to shoot a deer,pigeon,fox,rabbit,rat or squirrel i will sell my guns and jack it all in
Geordie

Whilst I agree with you re DCS1 and people becoming "qualified" stalkers overnight after passing it, but some of us have no option but to get the DSC1 under our belt so we can shoot on land. I had to do it because the land I was paying to shoot over changed hands and I was lucky enough to get offered FC land and they REQUIRE DSC1 before you can use their land. I wish we were all in your position, but most of us poor suckers HAVE NO OPTION but to pay for stalking if we want it and have to fulfil the land owners criteria, regardless of how long we have been stalking and experienced we are.

Please read my first post - this is not to do with deer managers and overnight stalkers, but supporting your view that DSC should not be a requirement and that BASC et al should be fighting our corner so that it doesnt become a requirement. And it might be an idea to start kicking up a fuss now, because how will it be before we are REQUIRED to have qualifications to stalk otherwise our FAC's are revoked because we are not fit/qualified to cull deer

atb Geordie

Andrew
 
Quite frankly, if you are new to rifles and requesting the grant of your first firearm certificate and your 'good reason' is deer stalking, then I have no problem with a compulsory DSC1. However, given that it is not currently a legal requirement, the question of whether the police should now be making DSC1 a requirement is a different issue.
 
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