legality of shots taken at permission boundary

andyf

Well-Known Member
Given most shots on deer would be expected to exit the animal, is any shot taken on a deer right at the boundary of your permission a bit dubious. I'd expect it's almost certain the round would exit, cross the boundary and land on the neighbouring ground. I'm assuming here that the shot is otherwise safe, i.e. there is a suitable backstop, but thinking of the proverbial situation where the animal is just on the 'right' side of the fence. So, the deer is in the right place but the backstop isn't!

Cheers,

Andy
 
As you say you expect the round to go through and across the boundary, so you would deliberately firing across you boundary, therefore it would be illegal
apart from that i have heart shot deer that ran for 100 yards before it realised it was dead, so chances are the deer would cross the boundary and becomes the property of that landowner, so not a shot i would take
 
Agree with the above post - shots over boundary illegal + deer just a few paces out of your permission cannot be retrieved (let alone a runner.....) - just not worth it but I hear of all sorts happening - I know if it were me though I'd end up right in the proverbial.....
Dont know about you but I have the contacts of all the landowners and their keepers that bound all my permissions - just in case
 
Given most shots on deer would be expected to exit the animal, is any shot taken on a deer right at the boundary of your permission a bit dubious. I'd expect it's almost certain the round would exit, cross the boundary and land on the neighbouring ground. I'm assuming here that the shot is otherwise safe, i.e. there is a suitable backstop, but thinking of the proverbial situation where the animal is just on the 'right' side of the fence. So, the deer is in the right place but the backstop isn't!

Cheers,

Andy

What some people type on here actually worries me some times -: If the bullet is leaving your permission that is not a safe back stop is it? so why would you entertain the shot in the first place? What worries me more is people have to ask these questions, surely it is basic knowledge?
 
What some people type on here actually worries me some times -: If the bullet is leaving your permission that is not a safe back stop is it? so why would you entertain the shot in the first place? What worries me more is people have to ask these questions, surely it is basic knowledge?

But I'm not entertaining the shot, am I? I'm asking a question on a forum where (most!) folk gladly offer the benefit of their experience which is almost certainly going to be greater than mine.

Sorry if I disappointed you with my question but I've just found out it it's going to take 6 months to get my friggin FAC (see above re. experience) so need to fill my time somehow!

Cheers!

Andy
 
This is a common problem in the urban fringe Andy and I am sure that the deer of many a stalker has made it across boundary or two. If I was to take the opinion of the deer might run a few yards then most of the deer I shoot in the toon would still be causing chaos on the road,s.
First off a clear back stop on your own ground is needed normally I use the at least a full deer above the deer you shoot.If the deer run on to other ground then you can always ask that person if you can go get it.If you do not know the person then remove the deer and tell the police what has happened offer the deer as a found item should any one fone to claim they own it.Place in your chill for three days after that eat it.
 
A number of interesting points in this thread.

The one that seems clear is that of the deer runs over the boundary whether wounded or 'dead on its feet', you've essentially lost it.

The less-clear thing is the lawfulness or otherwise of allowing your bullet to leave your ground. My view was hitherto that it is not criminally-unlawful to allow projectiles to leave your ground, unless the projectile is fired from an airgun:
that it might constitute trespass, for which a civil case could be prosecuted - but is not a criminal offence.

Could we perhaps see a circumstance where one might take a shot at a deer standing well on one's own ground, but the perfectly-safe backstop to which was on the neighbour's ground?
 
Not thinking about the deer running Davie, more the exiting round. Appreciate the risk/likelihood of a runner crossing a boundary in many a situation. But, roads excepted, that's not a safety/legal issue provided you do as you suggest in speaking to owner and/or police before recovering.

Might well have been a stupid question (although I thought it was fairly obvious I was 90% sure of the answer, so not entirely brain dead I hope...) but there was some background. I was out driving to Carmunnock earlier and started daydreaming about some distant day in the future when I acquire a rifle and some benevolent farmer kindly offered me the right to shoot on his land. I imagined one of the first things to do would be walk the ground and survey what was 'shootable' ground. Struck me that given a round is going to travel a considerable distance on exiting the animal then all the margins of the ground, and to a considerable depth (how far might an exiting round travel? another genuine question, hopefully less stupid!) become a no-shot area unless there is a backstop before the boundary or you use a highseat.

Actually now I read that back it sounds like I'm not such a risk to public safety after all. I will take off the sack cloth and stop the self-flagellation. Well..... I'll take off the sack cloth at least.

Cheers,

Andy
 
Could we perhaps see a circumstance where one might take a shot at a deer standing well on one's own ground, but the perfectly-safe backstop to which was on the neighbour's ground?

That was the real question I cunningly concealed within the stupid question! My instinct said the answer would be no because I thought you'd be falling foul of shooting across/into ground on which you didn't have permission but wasn't entirely sure if that would be the interpretation given it was a round exiting an animal legally shot on your own ground.

Cheers,

Andy
 
The round cannot leave the boundary of your permission (open ticket or restricted ticket) - you are only allowed to lawfully shoot on the ground you are granted permission on - it's not trespass, it's reckless endangerment.

If you're on the deck, arm at full length, two fingers together on the back of the animal - if you can see climbing earth then shoot, if you see sky, don't.... In both scenarios, don't shoot toward the perimeter of your boundary, regardless if you're in a seat or in the deck - it is not lawful.

Just consider - both my 30-06 and 243 will keep going for a good 5km - can you see that far? I can't....
 
I think some would be quite surprised how far the bullet head goes in some instances & the trajectory that it takes when and if it exits the beast, I would think that without knowing many of us have had one cross a boundary.
 
Absolutely, even some rimfire rounds can go for over a mile. Think about the .303 volley firing that they used to do in WW1. They would shoot over the horizon to create havoc to the rear of enemy positions. Then think about what a modern projectile could do if it goes through a deer, being thrown off line by nicking a bone. Doesn't bear thinking about too much, but you should. Big solid backstops that won't ricochet are always the thing to have.
 
...and if the big solid backstop is 10 yards across the boundary???

It doesn't matter - it's out of your permission so therefore unlawful...

Whilst on backstops, I always have a poke around my permissions to see what I'm shooting into - I've been surprised at the amount of 'made up' ground I've found (farmers, ahem, losing rubble here and there - oh, the edge of that copse would be good...... etc). Good to poke your stick in to see if you hit any shallow rock etc as you can't assume that everything is soft and never ending - my one perm in Hampshire has a lot of flint spoil on the edges of two really fruitful woods there.....
 
It doesn't matter - it's out of your permission so therefore unlawful...

Whilst on backstops, I always have a poke around my permissions to see what I'm shooting into - I've been surprised at the amount of 'made up' ground I've found (farmers, ahem, losing rubble here and there - oh, the edge of that copse would be good...... etc). Good to poke your stick in to see if you hit any shallow rock etc as you can't assume that everything is soft and never ending - my one perm in Hampshire has a lot of flint spoil on the edges of two really fruitful woods there.....

By that thinking you would never take a shot! no one can ever tell if a 2" diameter stone is just below the surface of the ground you are shooting into so there has to be some common sense used - if it ever went to court they would investigate if you had taken reasonable measures to ensure the backstop was ok, and having an open field behind can be classed as that depending on the angle the shot is taken from - the substance below the surface cannot be known. obviously you don't want to shoot into a stone wall but sometimes one pebble in the ground could have the same effect.

Regards,

Gixer
 
By that thinking you would never take a shot! no one can ever tell if a 2" diameter stone is just below the surface of the ground you are shooting into so there has to be some common sense used - if it ever went to court they would investigate if you had taken reasonable measures to ensure the backstop was ok, and having an open field behind can be classed as that depending on the angle the shot is taken from - the substance below the surface cannot be known. obviously you don't want to shoot into a stone wall but sometimes one pebble in the ground could have the same effect.

Regards,

Gixer

Fair enough - I don't shoot that many deer so perhaps that's the reason!
 
The round cannot leave the boundary of your permission (open ticket or restricted ticket) - you are only allowed to lawfully shoot on the ground you are granted permission on - it's not trespass, it's reckless endangerment.

How can it be 'reckless endangerment'? If it's a safe backstop, then it's a safe backstop - it doesn't seem to me to matter whose ground it's on. I think a neighbour would be hard-pressed to prove trespass for a bullet-hole in a piece of land, just as it would be hard to prove it for a cloud of 6s descending from a shot at a high pheasant near a boundary.

The effect of the FAC conditions on this depends, I suppose, on how they're worded. Mine do not mention any requirement to prevent a bullet passing over any boundary, though they might be interpreted as meaning that I had to have lawful authority to use a rifle on the actual ground where I was shooting - though that isn't a huge surprise, as that's the law regardless of what is says on the FAC.

Please note that I'm not suggesting that using some-else's ground as a backstop is a particularly good idea - I'm just trying to interrogate the idea that it is unlawful to allow a bullet to leave your own ground: why exactly do we think this is the case?
 
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Thank you. What I presumed.

cheers

Andy

It's a good question, regardless of whether you've ever had the intent or not - there isn't anyone who hasn't been in this position I expect, and if it makes someone think twice then good on you. There's a lot of emphasis on deer ecology, DSC etc etc - not so much on firearms awareness, which does worry me...
 
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