New Stalker: probation period question

Tomsk

Well-Known Member
Question:

A prospective stalker who has every intent to purchase a Ctr fire rifle and stalk deer over new land, choses to stalk with the land owner who permits the prospective stalker to stalk the deer accompanied with the use of the land owners rifle; the prospective stalker records the dates, events, species etc and has it witnessed

Can that record count towards an expected 'documented / accompanied' stalking' period which normally follows an application to shoot ctr fire for deer especially if the new rifle will be used on the same land as stalked previously ?

Of course any record will be great supporting evidence for an application whether contributory or not to that probation period

thx, TOMSK
 
It would I guess - but my question is - what probation period? There is no such thing in the guidance. Is this Wilts attempt at implementing a 'mentoring' clause?

Have 'the probationer' do their DSCL1 - or at least declare intent. Removes all ambiguity....
 
For clarity its been mentioned that where application for ctr fire + deer stalking is the case, then a mentoring period is applied as a condition

I used the word 'probation' instead of 'mentor' : nothing was meant by that choice of wording

TOMSK
 
New stalker has DSCL1 and undertaken multiple paid stalks with established local companies which can also be documented if necessary

TOMSK
 
New stalker has DSCL1 and undertaken multiple paid stalks with established local companies which can also be documented if necessary

TOMSK

it all depends on your local FLD.
when I initially started stalking I lived in Essex. They applied a mentoring condition, but said it would be removed after either passing DSC1 or obtaining letters to prove my experience over a period of time. I passed DSC1 less than a month later and the condition was removed.....
 
As per MP above, I too saw that applied in Essex - by an FEO no longer in the role.

I would say this - if the stalker in question already has a DSCL1 (and has previous shooting experience), there is no reason why a mentoring condition should be applied (this being the whim of the FEO, local FLD anyway). Given the record of experience you alluded to in the first instance, I would ask the experienced person doing the initial accompaniment to document their satisfaction of the stalkers capability, assessed through the accompanied stalks, and that they do not require a mentor condition for their permission and see no reason for it elsewhere.

All due diligence has been applied (and some!) - and if the FEO persists, I would refer the Stalker to his respective Shooting Organisation for assistance with the issue. The Stalker should not be afraid of being robust with the FEO.
 
it all depends on your local FLD.
when I initially started stalking I lived in Essex. They applied a mentoring condition, but said it would be removed after either passing DSC1 or obtaining letters to prove my experience over a period of time. I passed DSC1 less than a month later and the condition was removed.....

Similar to above, I had a " mentoring condition " which was removed once I had " gained experience"

mine was removed in 6 weeks with an accompanying letter from a guy who I went out with.

I did my DSC1 last year as I can see the way things are heading, I already had deer and fox on my ticket.
Good course and picked up a few tips...

My new flo did my sgc renewal and was chatting whilst writing notes about my c/fire experience so I just pointed to the cert on the wall, he nodded, took down the number and we carried on chatting...

None of us can tell you what to do, however the notes can work in your favour if you stand your ground and have a good paper work trail..... not trial!!



From the 2015 notes

Forces must ensure that where additional conditions are applied to certificates that they are kept to a minimum and are only applied where they are both proportionate and necessary.

Where the firearm is authorised for more than one purpose, care must be taken to omit the word ‘only’ in the conditions.
An asterisk conditions specific firearms on a certificate but may be replaced by the phrase, "The firearms and ammunition….." where a single condition applies to all firearms (and ammunition) on the certificate.
1. Quarry Shooting (for vermin, fox or deer)

The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND MODERATOR and ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin including fox, and ground game/ deer (delete as appropriate) and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing on ranges, on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.


(The words underlined may be omitted once the certificate holder has demonstrated competence. There is no set time for this and each case should be considered on its individual merits).

Tim.243
 
Tim

Thanks for the reply and personal example.
I can see my approach will be benefitial and a positive when it comes to an amendment to my FAC;

TOMSK
 
If you have previous firearms experience and DSC1 you won't need mentoring in Wilt's.

For deer my ticket is conditioned that I am accompanied until I pass a recognised deer management qualification so as soon as i do my DSC the condition is removed. the funny thing is I can use the .223 & 6.5 x 55 where and when i choose for fox as i'm on an open ticket!
 
Mentoring has been Removed by the Fire arms working group and firmly asked not to be used any more (tho forces can insist on what ever they like)

most forces are complying with that directive if not they are supposed to inform the Working group why
unfortunately the letter CC ANdy Marsh (Hants) chair of the committee issued was on the ACOP site but as that no longer exists it as yet hasnt been put back up on the new NPCC site that replaced it
 
If you have previous firearms experience and DSC1 you won't need mentoring in Wilt's.

For deer my ticket is conditioned that I am accompanied until I pass a recognised deer management qualification so as soon as i do my DSC the condition is removed. the funny thing is I can use the .223 & 6.5 x 55 where and when i choose for fox as i'm on an open ticket!


thast stupid you cant have a Open ticket on a gun and have conditions as well

Dorset Dont recognise DSC1 for anything relative to Application as exp

But will only open a ticket before 5yr point on Gaining DSC2 (so they say )
 
So they are conditioning the quarry species i.e. deer. However you are "safe" enough to shoot fox anywhere within your "open" conditions. This is both contrary and restrictive. An "accompanied/mentoring" condition should only be applied where the safe use of firearms cannot be evidenced and the only alternative would be a refusal on the grounds of public safety. They are clearly not complying with either Home Office or ACPO FELWG guidance.
If you have previous firearms experience and DSC1 you won't need mentoring in Wilt's.

For deer my ticket is conditioned that I am accompanied until I pass a recognised deer management qualification so as soon as i do my DSC the condition is removed. the funny thing is I can use the .223 & 6.5 x 55 where and when i choose for fox as i'm on an open ticket!
 
For deer my ticket is conditioned that I am accompanied until I pass a recognised deer management qualification

I'm intrigued by this 'accompanied' lark. Do they specify who it is or what their qualifications are? Or can you be accompanied by any grown up?
 
I'm intrigued by this 'accompanied' lark. Do they specify who it is or what their qualifications are? Or can you be accompanied by any grown up?

This is why the Fire arms group issued a letter to stop its use as there is no Check on the Mentor other than they have an open ticket nore is there any requirement that they actually Teach anything of if they did that they have any qualification or ability to do that to any level
 
You guys with these absolutely unworkable and unenforceable conditions really need to kick up. Time and time again flo's seem to think they make the rules to suit their whims. They don't have the authority. If you're safe your safe end of. I wouldn't be too afraid to let them know what you want and give your good reason and stick to it. They are smart enough to see if you have a good enough reason backed up by sound reasoning they have no need to apply bulls**t conditions.
Their silly little conditions do nothing to make them look any more effective that's for sure.
 
A&S do not recognise or ask for mentoring any more - formal firearm training is the way to go if someone is new to a shooting discipline - there is absolutely no difference in a safe shot whether it be at a rabbit, fox or deer, regardless of calibre.

I do think, however, (as the OP mentioned) that the prospective stalker has done the right thing in gaining valuable experience and logging it as such.

If new to shooting, sound mentoring should be sought in any discipline out of personal necessity, if nothing else IMO
 
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I totally agree hereford. I have commented as such myself in the past. However op is talking about a guy with cf on open ticket but not if he wants to shoot deer!:cuckoo: Where is the logic in that?
 
I totally agree hereford. I have commented as such myself in the past. However op is talking about a guy with cf on open ticket but not if he wants to shoot deer!:cuckoo: Where is the logic in that?

Sounds like his FEO and buddies may partake in a little stalking themselves in their spare time and are putting barriers in the way!

Seriously though, I can't understand it either? So you can shoot a fox in the dark with NV and a Ctr Fire rifle but not stalk into a deer in the broad daylight? The mind boggles - if you are deemed safe, you are safe!
 
when i first applied for my firearms ,on first grant i wasnt required to have a mentor and i live in essex . i just argued my case why i didnt need one and they were fine , this was 8 years ago and i diddnt have dsc then either as these were not required in the home office guidance
 
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