New licences from police scotland missing section 5 conditions

Scots_stalker

Well-Known Member
I heard of 3 licences yesterday that had been in for renewal and had been returned with section 5 left out by mistake , leaving the holder unable to buy or keep ammunition.

Check those tickets as as as they come in guys. As I am hearing it's taking months to have it rectified
 
Not sure what you mean....do you mean specifically expanding ammunition, or ammo in general? Expanding ammo is Condition 6 on mine. There is no Section 5 on my certificate. Authority to keep ammunition is Section 2. Ammunition purchases to be recorded on Table 2. Mines all OK anyway
 
Not sure what you mean....do you mean specifically expanding ammunition, or ammo in general? Expanding ammo is Condition 6 on mine. There is no Section 5 on my certificate. Authority to keep ammunition is Section 2. Ammunition purchases to be recorded on Table 2. Mines all OK anyway[/QUOTE


on new or renewal tickets section 5 is the authority to buy / keep expanding ammunition , this is missed out altogether , i was in my local gunshop on sunday when a chap came in to buy some and had to be refused, the shop manager said he was the third person in that morning he had to turn away
 
I'm sure you are right....but....my renewal was issued 3 weeks ago...

Section 1 'Firearms posessed or authorised'...etc etc..
Section 2 'Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles'

Conditions 1-6 on 1st and 2nd page...condition 5..AOLQ, condition 6 'The holder of this certificate may posess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition.

It sounds as though some-one has forgotten to put in the condition relating to expanding ammunition/missiles, whether it be 5 or 6.

Worth checking though..where was yours done? Glasgow I guess. Serves him right for going in a gun shop on the sabbath!!:D
 
I'm sure you are right....but....my renewal was issued 3 weeks ago...

Section 1 'Firearms posessed or authorised'...etc etc..
Section 2 'Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles'

Conditions 1-6 on 1st and 2nd page...condition 5..AOLQ, condition 6 'The holder of this certificate may posess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition.

It sounds as though some-one has forgotten to put in the condition relating to expanding ammunition/missiles, whether it be 5 or 6.

Worth checking though..where was yours done? Glasgow I guess. Serves him right for going in a gun shop on the sabbath!!:D

Are there gun shops open on Sundays? If they're not blasted by a bolt of lightning beforehand then the Free Church of Scotland will have them shut down immediately.:confused:;)

Seriously, I think SS is referring to Section 5 of the Firearms Act allowing 'prohibited' expanding ammo & missiles. I think the numbering of the Conditions is sequential and varies by FAC, and that Scottish certificates aren't any different from English or Welsh ones.

Section V 'Expanding' appears on Condition 8, 9, and 10 on mine, but was somewhere else on the previous one.
 
The ammunition is "section five" in that it comes under section five of the firearms act (firearms and ammunition subject to general prohibition) It has nothing to do with which section of your FAC it's on. <facepalm>

I had to send my FAC back because they had given permission for a 7.57mm rifle and moderator, merged the allocation of .22LR and .22WMR into ".22 ammunition" and "lost" a slot to acquire a .22 moderator. To be fair, if it's Glasgow, they are stupendously understaffed, in fact I believe there is just one lady doing a job that should originally have been staffed by at least five people. She's very helpful when you ring them up though. I'm hoping that my FAC doesn't take weeks to get back though. I had to hassle them over my renewal (with the amazing help from the FEO who was an absolute star). It had been listed as a new issue because my previous cert was issued by a different constabulary. Apparently all grants are being shelved while they deal with renewals. New grants are taking upwards of 6 months. All this after an increase in the cost?
 
Scots_stalker, which gunsmith was this? I'm near Forth (not far from Lanark) and looking for local gunsmiths.
 
As long as your firearms are conditioned for quarry shooting it covers sect 5 ammunition, I queried this with the FEO and four different gunshops

I think if you have conditions that allow quarry-shooting, then your certificate should carry the Section 5 ammunition authority.

The Section 5 ammunition authority looks like this:
The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles
of such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with:
(a) the lawful shooting of deer;
(b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
(c) the humane killing of animals;
(d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.

My view is that, notwithstanding any quarry-shooting conditions on an FAC, unless the Section 5 authority is there then the FAC-holder has no authority to acquire, possess or use Section 5 ammunition.

To summarise:
I think that if you don't have the Section 5 authority on your FAC, then you don't have authority lawfully to acquire, possess or use Section 5 ammuntion.
 
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Just been reading this thread...my ticket was "up" on 8th June, and Police Scotland sent me a Section 7, with an exemption to buy ammo, the amounts and a covering letter too, with it all printed on the temp ticket...now, this morning I went to buy bullets to do some reloading, bought 100 Vmax, and the chap couldnt mark them up on the ticket, as , as he says, their is no where to write it down....any thoughts???
 
Just been reading this thread...my ticket was "up" on 8th June, and Police Scotland sent me a Section 7, with an exemption to buy ammo, the amounts and a covering letter too, with it all printed on the temp ticket...now, this morning I went to buy bullets to do some reloading, bought 100 Vmax, and the chap couldnt mark them up on the ticket, as , as he says, their is no where to write it down....any thoughts???

I agree with Dalua that the FAC is the (one and only) crucial document under the 1968 Act for 'Expanding'.

If something isn't on the FAC then there is no legal authority to it, whether you've got a Section 7 temporary permit, a disclaimer from your Chief Constable, or even a note from your mum.

There is no legal assumption that quarry shooting entitles you to acquire/use/possess Section V. The wording under Section 1 is just an exemption from the prohibition made under Section V .... so it must be present on the face of the FAC.

There was an Appeal Court case which ruled that this was so ..... I'll try and find it.
 
I think if you have conditions that allow quarry-shooting, then your certificate should carry the Section 5 ammunition authority.

The Section 5 ammunition authority looks like this:
The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles
of such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with:
(a) the lawful shooting of deer;
(b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
(c) the humane killing of animals;
(d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.

My view is that, notwithstanding any quarry-shooting conditions on an FAC, unless the Section 5 authority is there then the FAC-holder has no authority to acquire, possess or use Section 5 ammunition.

To summarise:
I think that if you don't have the Section 5 authority on your FAC, then you don't have authority lawfully to acquire, possess or use Section 5 ammuntion.

This is correct, you need authority on your fac to purchase expanding ammunition irrespective of the 'all lawful quarry condition'.
 
and the chap couldnt mark them up on the ticket, as , as he says, their is no where to write it down....any thoughts???

Slightly different but just before my last renewal my cert was out of space for ammo so the shop wrote it on to a plain page of paper and stapled it into my cert. But at renewal my FLO made a right fuss saying I should not have done this, I should have sent the cert back for a new page to be added first!
 
Just been reading this thread...my ticket was "up" on 8th June, and Police Scotland sent me a Section 7, with an exemption to buy ammo, the amounts and a covering letter too, with it all printed on the temp ticket...now, this morning I went to buy bullets to do some reloading, bought 100 Vmax, and the chap couldnt mark them up on the ticket, as , as he says, their is no where to write it down....any thoughts???

There's a reason why there is no space for the dealer to write on ammunition or bullet purchases on a temporary permit. Look at Page 140 15.3 of the guidance to police document. It looks like the firearms department may have got the process wrong.
 
Actually it's not automatic all all. You definitely need the condition to buy expanding ammo. Also while it is illegal to shoot deer with non expanding other sorts of quarry are not protected in the same way and may legally (if not ethically) shot with FMJ.
 
Hunting with FMJ is illegal
It is certainly unlawful to shoot deer unless the bullets are hollow-pointed or soft-nosed in Engalnd and Wales, or something like 'designed to expand in a predictable manner' in Scotland. I think it is generally agreed that most bullets which fit into those categories are prohibited under Section 5.
Arguably not all of them, however.
Additionally, as far as I'm aware there are no requirements in law concerning the bullets used for shooting quarry other than deer - though clearly we must keep animal welfare legislation in mind.

as soon as your conditions state you are allowed to hunt quarry it is an automatic right to purchase expanding ammunition, out of the mouths of four RFD'S
As soon as you have a quarry condition, you should automatically be given the Section 5 authority on your FAC as well.
Unless that is what the RFDs mean, then they are mistaken.

If you do not have the specific authority for Section 5 ammuntion on your FAC, you may not acquire, possess or use it.
 
Hunting with FMJ is illegal , as soon as your conditions state you are allowed to hunt quarry it is an automatic right to purchase expanding ammunition, out of the mouths of four RFD'S

The RFD's are wrong, the 'all lawful quarry' condition places the onus on you the certificate holder to ensure you are using a legal calibre and ammunition for the quarry you are hunting. You need a seperate condition on your certificate to purchase and possess expanding 'S.5' ammunition for that purpose, phone up Glasgow firearms licensing department and ask them why they are in the process of recalling the certificates they 'forgot' to add the expanding ammunition too.
 
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