Money ..Money ... Money

Bugsy

Well-Known Member
I was yarning to a few local farmers this week and the subject of what certificates if any do I need to go shooting came up. So I gave them the sob story of the level 1 £150, level 2 £300 , First Aid £120, ATV £180, Manual Handling £100, Chainsaw Cert £150 ........ it fair mounts up . These certificates I needed to tender for any FC ground but for most of us with shooting permissions on local farms and smaller forestry contracts know you don't need all of them. Then my mate who owns a farm pounced on me with ' is that all' and proceeded to show me a letter from his local Argricultural College stating course's that they would be" offerering" in the next few months to keep in line with new legislation and were looking for numbers. They were as follows - Trapping and Poisoning of Moles , 1 day course £375. Trapping and Poisoning of Rats and Mice , 1 day course £375 . The other one was for grass and crop spraying which he has and it was £700 for a 2day course, needless to say his son now need's the spraying cert so ...another £700. So to catch moles and rats on his own farm he has to have these certificates and if he get's caught with any poison used to kill the fore mentioned without the cert's he would loose his single farm payment.He is now going to look into getting a Pest Control firm . It's all getting out of control and sooner or later you are going to need a cert to wipe your own a...:eek:.
 
What will happen is the course providers will price themselves out. It will go full circle and no-one will bother with them again. I've noticed lately, over the last couple of years, H+S seems to have died down in factories. Only had one customer who's job we couldn't / wouldn't do in the last 12 months and that was because we needed to work on another firms site. No-one asks us now what ppe equipment we have or for a risk assessment, we just go and do the job.
 
You should try being a self employed contractor doing tree work / felling for the Forestry Commission.
The list is in fact pretty much endless. NPTC qualifications, buddy system, risk assessment, method statement, first aid qualification. Certified hiviz clothing, helmets, visors, ear protection, boots, trousers . . Quad qualification, Chemical spill kit. If you want to take a dump in the trees, they make you install a septic tank first.
 
well, you've got to be in it to win it chaps. When you think of the cost in buying a new pickup and the depreciation costs associated with new to 3 year old vehicle..... your certification costs are peanuts. So, is it too much of a hassle?
 
well, you've got to be in it to win it chaps. When you think of the cost in buying a new pickup and the depreciation costs associated with new to 3 year old vehicle..... your certification costs are peanuts. So, is it too much of a hassle?


Not arguing the point, just saying round here in the industrial world H+S isn't what it was. Can walk around big factories now without hard hat (not much use when a 20t coil hits you). Walk in and out of sites, work off ladders again. Haven't had boots checked for toecaps for ages (probably just as well). It had reached the stage where contractors were saying "do you want the job done or not?", and now it seems they do.
 
Working for any major business in a "high risk" activity is incredibly expensive, our public/employers liability for industrial pipework is around £20k not to mention the numerous certificates and codings required.in my experience things have moved on from the H&S quagmire to a compliance quagmire instead!
 
Not arguing the point, just saying round here in the industrial world H+S isn't what it was. Can walk around big factories now without hard hat (not much use when a 20t coil hits you). Walk in and out of sites, work off ladders again. Haven't had boots checked for toecaps for ages (probably just as well). It had reached the stage where contractors were saying "do you want the job done or not?", and now it seems they do.

That'll be fine until there's an accident, then fingers will be pointed and get out clauses will be found and the guy without steel toe capped boots will be the guy that's shafted, not H+S guy.
 
Not arguing the point, just saying round here in the industrial world H+S isn't what it was. Can walk around big factories now without hard hat (not much use when a 20t coil hits you). Walk in and out of sites, work off ladders again. Haven't had boots checked for toecaps for ages (probably just as well). It had reached the stage where contractors were saying "do you want the job done or not?", and now it seems they do.
Done a big renovation on a house and got guys down to skim the whole house . They work for a bigger firm and H/S regs meant that when they were on sight plastering a ceiling they had to have a scaffold , harness , hard hat , gloves, and high viz at all times . It ****ed them of the time it took to do a ceiling so when they came to do my ceiling's it was a pleasure for them to work as they wanted with nobody peeping round corners trying to catch them out, and they said freedom to work meant they could leave a quicker and better job.
 
Done a big renovation on a house and got guys down to skim the whole house . They work for a bigger firm and H/S regs meant that when they were on sight plastering a ceiling they had to have a scaffold , harness , hard hat , gloves, and high viz at all times . It ****ed them of the time it took to do a ceiling so when they came to do my ceiling's it was a pleasure for them to work as they wanted with nobody peeping round corners trying to catch them out, and they said freedom to work meant they could leave a quicker and better job.


That's what we're getting more and more now. Had some roller shutter blokes in last week, 16' up the ladder because they couldn't be bothered with a tower. Got to bring the tower now anyway but only because the motor's too heavy for one man to lift down the ladder :D
 
well, you've got to be in it to win it chaps. When you think of the cost in buying a new pickup and the depreciation costs associated with new to 3 year old vehicle..... your certification costs are peanuts. So, is it too much of a hassle?

That raises the question do you actually need a new pickup?

Or was it that you just wanted one?

So many today want to keep up with the Jones ....................... so spend a fortune just to do so. Just think of all that tax you giving to the Government to squander!
 
What will happen is the course providers will price themselves out. It will go full circle and no-one will bother with them again. I've noticed lately, over the last couple of years, H+S seems to have died down in factories. Only had one customer who's job we couldn't / wouldn't do in the last 12 months and that was because we needed to work on another firms site. No-one asks us now what ppe equipment we have or for a risk assessment, we just go and do the job.

I don't think that's going to happen, I base that opinion on the fact that the course providers are simply responding to the requirements of the industry and the forestry companies. . . .What I do think is happening though, is I think we are approaching a plateau whereby demand for training is slowing down. I think there is a number of reasons for this, starting with the price of leases which have reached the unobtainable for most people. I also think the price of guided stalking has also increased exponentially, particularly on hinds and does, again reflecting the price of leases which have been pushed artificially high with some remarkable rents being paid.

I think people are beginning to realise the stalking utopia which they are considering spending an absolute fortune training for doesn't actually exist, and the cull figure of 30 roe (im being generous in most cases) shared between six stalkers over the period of a year isn't quite so appealing once the cost of the training is factored into the equation on top of the cost of the lease / syndicate space, fuel, accommodation etc.

Stalking and the accompanying training and health and safety requirements are here to stay, but training providers are now at saturation point and prospective stalkers thinking about taking up the sport are beginning to wise up to the cash cow it has become to some.

I'm sure my opinion will go down like a lead balloon, but it is based on personal experience having come through the process of gaining all the qualifications, tendering for and running leases, guiding clients, and working for a time in the forestry industry.
 
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I don't think that's going to happen, I base that opinion on the fact that the course providers are simply responding to the requirements of the industry and the forestry companies. . . .What I do think is happening though, is I think we are approaching a plateau whereby demand for training is slowing down. I think there is a number of reasons for this, starting with the price of leases which have reached the unobtainable for most people. I also think the price of guided stalking has also increased exponentially, particularly on hinds and does, again reflecting the price of leases which have been pushed artificially high with some remarkable rents being paid.

I think people are beginning to realise the stalking utopia which they are considering spending an absolute fortune training for doesn't actually exist, and the cull figure of 30 roe (im being generous in most cases) shared between six stalkers over the period of a year isn't quite so appealing once the cost of the training is factored into the equation on top of the cost of the lease / syndicate space, fuel, accommodation etc.

Stalking and the accompanying training and health and safety requirements are here to stay, but training providers are now at saturation point and prospective stalkers thinking about taking up the sport are beginning to wise up to the cash cow it has become to some.

I'm sure my opinion will go down like a lead balloon, but it is based on personal experience having come through the process of gaining all the qualifications, tendering for and running leases, guiding clients, and working for a time in the forestry industry.
Spot on .
 
Yes H+S is here to stay but it does need a common sense review as there isnt any.We have "bump" caps for head protection which state on the the label not for impact protection WTF .We have to wear weld masks ,leather coats and gauntlets to "purge"out molten plastic ,but its under a big metal guard going on to steel plate at low pressure 3 to 4 ft from you and common sense means you dont move it till its set cold.The operators wear high vis jackets on line to stop them being run over where there are no fork trucks ???Then going to the loo/canteen signs warn them to take them off as theyre forbidden in our area!!For 18 years the blue walkway has been safe <no safety boots>as nothing on it at all to hurt injure anyone new safety fascist arrives now the whole factory is safety boots only??.The walkway is still totally free of anything at all.Common sense is required but its out stock and not due in till the 30th Feb
 
Should I have had a certificate to kill the mole I shot yesterday?

Undoubtedly you need one to carry out such an act and further more another certificate to dispose of the bodily remains properly :rolleyes: and no one with out the proper training can possibly cope with such and ardous task.

Just think of all those you are denying work by not taking up the required training and certification!
 
Should I have had a certificate to kill the mole I shot yesterday?
Not yet it's only us Scottish ****'s that look as though we will be hit with the new legislation first(SNP TO BLAME PROBABLY) but could be wrong . It's a certificate of merit you should get :) .
 
That'll be fine until there's an accident, then fingers will be pointed and get out clauses will be found and the guy without steel toe capped boots will be the guy that's shafted, not H+S guy.

This is spot on - The only reason why everyone keeps banging on about qualifications and certifications for anything and everything you can think of is to cover themselves.

If you offer a land lease to someone without DSC1, or get someone to chop down a tree without a chainsaw ticket, or re-wire your house without a CORGI certificate or.. or ... or... and then something goes wrong the ginormous shower of brown stuff will fall on the person who can be proven to have been "negligent" in any capacity, even if that negligence is just wearing the wrong shoes or having an expired chainsaw licence.

I think for household work your insurance can be invalid if you don't get all the various safety certificates signed off by a qualified electrician or whatever, so in that instance both you AND the contractor are up the Swanee.
 
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