6.5 creedmoor

Rob northeast

Well-Known Member
Hi guys I'm currently in the process of having a rifle built by dave at valkyrie in 6.5 creedmoor, I've already managed to get hold of a few tubs of h4350, 139gr lapua senar, and some unicorn droppings in the form of 140gr amax.
What I need from you friendly folk is some advice on loads
It's going to be 1 in 8 twist cut to 26" any advice would be great cheers
 
Adamant is getting one of these built too but not at the same place maybe he could help if you flick him a PM.
 
I'm prity sure dave will give me some good data, but I try to pester him as little as possible so he's got more time to do what he dose best haha,
 
Hornady prints its 140gn factory AMAX load on each 20 round carton to let handloading users duplicate it:

Hornady case
Fed 210M match primer
140gn Hornady AMAX 2.800" COAL
41.9gn H4350

That load gives an average peak chamber pressure of around 58,000 psi, (some 5,000 below the SAAMI max) in a standard SAAMI spec test barrel which is a pretty good place to be. Usefully start a grain lower and fine-tune the load in small increments upwards to whatever the rifle likes around that level.

The 139gn Scenar will produce similar pressures to the 140gn AMAX, marginally lower if anything, but may need the COAL tuning slightly as it has a different nose shape / length from the Hornady bullet.
 
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At 2.9" COAL the Lapua bullet load start point with H4350 I'd use would be 39.5 grains theoretically giving about 2600 ft/sec & 46000psi. Obviously Dave needs to qualify this & advise you.

Ian
 
Don't try to re-invent the wheel. Load it as printed on the box. It is the load the cartridge was built around. Ruger chambers their Precision Rifle specifically for this load, at these dimensions. The reason Hornady lists the exact load is so that anyone can duplicate their match loading at home. I can tell you from first hand experience that it is an outstandingly accurate in about any Creedmoor you shoot it in.~Muir
 
Don't try to re-invent the wheel. Load it as printed on the box. It is the load the cartridge was built around. Ruger chambers their Precision Rifle specifically for this load, at these dimensions. The reason Hornady lists the exact load is so that anyone can duplicate their match loading at home. I can tell you from first hand experience that it is an outstandingly accurate in about any Creedmoor you shoot it in.~Muir


Why would any home loader want to duplicate any factory load unless in the very unlikely event it turns out to be the most accurate (which i would be willing to bet it won't). Unless every rifle was cut with the same reamer etc every rifle will require a slightly different oal/powder charge etc to get the best from it. The whole point of home loading apart from obvious cost savings is to be able to tailor your loads to suit your individual rifle and gain every scrap of it's potential accuracy from it or am i missing something?
 
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Don't try to re-invent the wheel. Load it as printed on the box. It is the load the cartridge was built around. Ruger chambers their Precision Rifle specifically for this load, at these dimensions. The reason Hornady lists the exact load is so that anyone can duplicate their match loading at home. I can tell you from first hand experience that it is an outstandingly accurate in about any Creedmoor you shoot it in.~Muir
But careful with that as it seems they have not been using H4350 but some hybrid of other powder.
 
Why would any home loader want to duplicate any factory load unless in the very unlikely event it turns out to be the most accurate (which i would be willing to bet it won't). Unless every rifle was cut with the same reamer etc every rifle will require a slightly different oal/powder charge etc to get the best from it. The whole point of home loading apart from obvious cost savings is to be able to tailor your loads to suit your individual rifle and gain every scrap of it's potential accuracy from it or am i missing something?
Exactly ! I tried a SAAMI spec in my creedmoor with 41.9g and H4350 and it was all over the place , end result 42.6g and coal at 2.925 was perfect for my gun ...
 
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Cheers for all the help and advice guys, sorry muir but I'm with RPA 6mm br on that one, if that was the case we all might aswell just throw are coal gauges away and just load what it says on the box, after all who want to spend ££££'s on a custom made rifle and then just run factory ammo through it
 
Cheers for all the help and advice guys, sorry muir but I'm with RPA 6mm br on that one, if that was the case we all might aswell just throw are coal gauges away and just load what it says on the box, after all who want to spend ££££'s on a custom made rifle and then just run factory ammo through it


Well, that actually IS the point about the 6.5mm Creedmoor - those who wish to buy a custom rifle and get good results from factory ammo will do so. In the USA, the factory ammunition is affordable and many users stick to it. Hornady, Ruger, Savage and Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool & Gage came up with a standard chamber reamer spec that is optimised for the 140gn Hornady AMAX at exactly 2.800" COAL as the original raison d'etre for the cartridge was the 'match' division of American Hi-Power 'XTC' competition, a three-position quasi-service rifle discipline involving rapid fire and in-stage magazine changes and where the ammo has to fit and feed ultra reliably from standard 'big AR' and short action bolt-rifle detachable magazines.

That's not to say that you cannot or should not fine-tune handloads, but it gives people a good starting point. Most US handloaders of the cartridge also use H4350 even those who've tried alternatives. With the powder being expensive here, and often difficult to get hold of, it makes sense to find an equally good alternative that has a more secure supply chain. I believe that Reload Swiss RS62 may become the European alternative to H4350 for this cartridge, but we'll have to see.

So far as COALs go, I found that a rifle chambered with the standard chamber that almost everybody uses, PT&G print number (10618) provides 15 thou' jump for the 140 AMAX at exactly 2.800 COAL and the 120 at 2.720 as per the factory specs. Dave Wylde at Valkyries uses this reamer as does every other UK rifle builder that I've spoken to. And yes ... subject to individual smiths running the chamber reamer into the blank a thou' or two different amounts every custom rifle chambered with this standard reamer will have the same freebore plus or minus 0.002" or thereabouts.

Hornady presumably hopes that even those users who handload will buy its AMAX bullets as a proven reduced work option. Other makes / models of bullets may obviously produce different COALs. In a custom rifle chambered with the industry standard PT&G reamer, I got the following COALs at 15 thou' 'out', but people should always check their own chambers:

123gn Scenar .................... 2.743"
139gn Scenar .................... 2.759"
140gn Berger LR BT ............. 2.800"
142gn Sierra MK ................. 2.800"
140gn Nosler CC Match ........ 2.748"

and some 15 thou' 'in the lands' for VLD forms:

136gn Scenar .................... 2.727"
130gn Berger VLD ............... 2.861"
140gn Berger VLD ............... 2.865"



I'm a little amused too at a forum member with 6BR in his or her forum name implying that off the shelf loads are sub-optimal. 300 metre ISSF 3-position competition isn't very popular in the UK, but it is the biggest centrefire rifle discipline by far in most European countries and attracts serious media and online interest, big prizes and corporate sponsorship that we just don't see here. What do the top competitors use? Factory Norma or more often Lapua 6mm BR Norma fodder. As is the intention with the Creedmoor, custom rifles are built around the ammo spec. Nothing exactly new here - the .22 Long Rifle rimfire competitors have done so for generations.
 
You can always tweak loads, but for a fresh build and "starting point" you can do no better than to use what Hornady uses. IT is a benchmark. And as Laurie states, duplicating factory ammunition IS the point of the Creedmoor.

FWIW, i am an avid handloader who attempts to duplicate the best factory ammunition every time I'm at the bench.~Muir
 
Some comments on here seem to be possibly hinting at short cutting the standard procedure for loading a new (to you) combination. (Especially in a new rifle that has no individual benchmark to follow) It matters not a hoot where you end up as long as it's safe - blooper low speed-imitation factory-or super fast high velocity & pressure loadings - your choice.

You should always start low & work up in my view.

Have fun

Ian
 
Whilst I agree 100% with starting low and working up in handloading, this raises an interesting question when it is a standardised chamber form with a standardised (factory worked-up) components and load combination.

If you say (for example) 'one MUST start at 10% charge reduction and work up' in such a case, pray tell me the difference from not doing so with factory ammo. If you can't trust a factory provided load, one that has been set around 5,000 psi below the industry allowed maximum average pressure (note average, not peak as peak may run up to 2,000 psi above average), then why should you trust that manufacturer's (or any other manufacturer's) factory ammo? Logic therefore dictates that if buying ammo for a 'new (to you) combination', you should pull the bullets on some of the contents of the first carton and reduce powder charges incrementally increasing them until you get back to what the manufacturer has put in. Otherwise, you're saying you can't trust a manufacturer when it quotes a load combination for handloading, but you do trust the same manufacturer when it puts the combination together for you!

Yes, I say that a bit tongue in cheek. I have come across handloaders whose scales are somewhat 'off' for instance. However, there is still an issue as to where you draw the line here. How many people on this forum worked a load up with the contents of a single 1lb bottle of powder they bought in 19 oatcake and still use that load today? Even though canister powders should remain consistent lot to lot, there are many well recorded instances of significant changes over time, or even between lots made in a single year. The logic is that if you're running a very high-pressure maximum load, you retest every time you buy more powder - and I'm not saying that tongue in cheek as that's what many competitors do. One of Vihtavuori's primary marketing messages is its lot to lot consistency, but I've seen changes with some of its products too, especially when we're talking about finishing off older batches where the powder bottle has been opened repeatedly allowing a small amount of drying up of the contents.
 
Well, that actually IS the point about the 6.5mm Creedmoor - those who wish to buy a custom rifle and get good results from factory ammo will do so. In the USA, the factory ammunition is affordable and many users stick to it. Hornady, Ruger, Savage and Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool & Gage came up with a standard chamber reamer spec that is optimised for the 140gn Hornady AMAX at exactly 2.800" COAL as the original raison d'etre for the cartridge was the 'match' division of American Hi-Power 'XTC' competition, a three-position quasi-service rifle discipline involving rapid fire and in-stage magazine changes and where the ammo has to fit and feed ultra reliably from standard 'big AR' and short action bolt-rifle detachable magazines.

That's not to say that you cannot or should not fine-tune handloads, but it gives people a good starting point. Most US handloaders of the cartridge also use H4350 even those who've tried alternatives. With the powder being expensive here, and often difficult to get hold of, it makes sense to find an equally good alternative that has a more secure supply chain. I believe that Reload Swiss RS62 may become the European alternative to H4350 for this cartridge, but we'll have to see.

So far as COALs go, I found that a rifle chambered with the standard chamber that almost everybody uses, PT&G print number (10618) provides 15 thou' jump for the 140 AMAX at exactly 2.800 COAL and the 120 at 2.720 as per the factory specs. Dave Wylde at Valkyries uses this reamer as does every other UK rifle builder that I've spoken to. And yes ... subject to individual smiths running the chamber reamer into the blank a thou' or two different amounts every custom rifle chambered with this standard reamer will have the same freebore plus or minus 0.002" or thereabouts.

Hornady presumably hopes that even those users who handload will buy its AMAX bullets as a proven reduced work option. Other makes / models of bullets may obviously produce different COALs. In a custom rifle chambered with the industry standard PT&G reamer, I got the following COALs at 15 thou' 'out', but people should always check their own chambers:

123gn Scenar .................... 2.743"
139gn Scenar .................... 2.759"
140gn Berger LR BT ............. 2.800"
142gn Sierra MK ................. 2.800"
140gn Nosler CC Match ........ 2.748"

and some 15 thou' 'in the lands' for VLD forms:

136gn Scenar .................... 2.727"
130gn Berger VLD ............... 2.861"
140gn Berger VLD ............... 2.865"



I'm a little amused too at a forum member with 6BR in his or her forum name implying that off the shelf loads are sub-optimal. 300 metre ISSF 3-position competition isn't very popular in the UK, but it is the biggest centrefire rifle discipline by far in most European countries and attracts serious media and online interest, big prizes and corporate sponsorship that we just don't see here. What do the top competitors use? Factory Norma or more often Lapua 6mm BR Norma fodder. As is the intention with the Creedmoor, custom rifles are built around the ammo spec. Nothing exactly new here - the .22 Long Rifle rimfire competitors have done so for generations.

With respect, whilst it's quite obvious that you have a great understanding of loading/ballistics (almost certainly a better knowledge of such than i have) i still stand by my comment and believe that a tailored homeload will outperform a 'standard/genetic offering. I also couldn't give a toss how amusing you find my user name! So i have made a reference to a 6mmBR, so what? In no way does that title imply i am a target shooter/expert, i merely love the cartridge for general sporting use! Please don't assume in life as you may know about rifle ballistics but you know nothing about me!
 
Please don't be offended - no offence was intended at all. The 6mm BR is a very fine cartridge indeed that I'm very fond of and all my use of it is with handloads. However, the point stands that the numerically greatest use of the cartridge in Europe is 300 metre ISSF and this is a real precision discipline ... and the top users almost all fire factory ammo. With a custom rifle tailored to factory Lapua 6BR ammo, I frankly doubt if I would improve on the latter's performance.

I think you are being a little thin-skinned here. I DON'T find your user name amusing, and did not say that, just that someone who adopts a cartridge name in his forum name should take a position which real life use of that cartridge argues against. If that offends you, well I apologise.
 
Please don't be offended - no offence was intended at all. The 6mm BR is a very fine cartridge indeed that I'm very fond of and all my use of it is with handloads. However, the point stands that the numerically greatest use of the cartridge in Europe is 300 metre ISSF and this is a real precision discipline ... and the top users almost all fire factory ammo. With a custom rifle tailored to factory Lapua 6BR ammo, I frankly doubt if I would improve on the latter's performance.

I think you are being a little thin-skinned here. I DON'T find your user name amusing, and did not say that, just that someone who adopts a cartridge name in his forum name should take a position which real life use of that cartridge argues against. If that offends you, well I apologise.


Fair do's Laurie. One thing i will add though if you don't mind and thats that the factory offering from Lapua would be loaded to far tighter tolerances than the factory ammo that most people would associate their shooting with. Lapua match ammunition is always going to be a far superior load in comparison to the run of the mill factory loads that 99% of shooters that read this will use which was always my virtual comparative.
 
Yes, Lapua's 6BR ammo is loaded to very tight tolerances. I wouldn't be surprised too if the top ISSF guys and girls get selected batches - a lot of them are Norma and Lapua sponsored. (It galls Lapua that even though many, most maybe, winners use its ammo, the cartridge name is 6mm BR Norma. This was one of the drivers behind Lapua developing the 6.5X47mm Lapua cartridge - it hoped that this design would replace the 6BR in the discipline. Although the '47 Lapua has been a very successful design for other uses, it failed completely in its objective here though - 6BR is still king in ISSF.)
 
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