Shooting deer with a .357?

Shootist

Well-Known Member
I have been advised that my .357 rifle is a 'deer calibre'. I've worked up loads on Quickload and it looks like I can stoke it up to achieve 1,000 ft/lb, but if I try for 1,700 ft/lb it looks like I'm going to get pieces of rifle embedded in my face. Informed opinions on using this calibre for deer would be appreciated, most particularly from professional stalking facilities.
 
You won't get 1700 ft-lbs, never gonna happen. You'll get 1000 ft-lbs easily enough and for woodland muntjac it'll be great. If you want 1700 ft-lbs from a pistol cartridge then 44 Mag is the one to go for.
Michael Eatley who runs Muntjacstalker - About us will accommodate you with your 357. He was fine with me taking mine. I didn't book in the end due to other commitments.

You'll need 1700fps with a 158gr and 1900 with a 125gr. Quickload is good but take it with a pinch of salt and compare against proper load data like this Take Aim at Rifle Reloading Data | Hodgdon Reloading

Depending on the chamber and action of your rifle you can often load bullets a fair amount out f the case with 357 but measure your chamber and cycle a few dummy round before taking the plunge.
 
I have used a single shot Rossi carbine in.38/.357 for many years as a Humane Dispatch tool, I have found that the .357 158 grn jacketed flat nose is way too powerful on the smaller species. Complete pass through on chest shot Muntjac, Roe and Fallow with a fist sized exit wound, if a rib is hit. The .38 125 grn jacketed flat point is less destructive and I have had no trouble (one example), dispatching an RTA Fallow Pricket with a shattered front leg (the only safe shot was a quartering chest shot as it shambled along a ditch). The .38/.357 cartridge in real world situations is a very effective short range ( my personal limit is below 100 yards) calibre, the extra length (20 inch barrel) elevates this humble cartridge.
I fully realise that the legal distinction between "normal" UK stalking calibre requirements and "humane Dispatch" are two different things, but you did ask for real world experiences! I hope this helps.
 
That was quick! Many thanks. The question was asked because I originally wanted the .357 for fox. I was going to fit a moderator and use subsonic wadcutters for foxes at close range (<50yds) where noise would be an issue. This was knocked back because ".357 is a deer calibre."
 
Hello. From Leicester to you. Historically the .300 Sherwood (as Westley Richards called it) or as BSA called it the .300 Extra Long was a "park deer" rifle. That's fallow deer to you and me.

You'll easily duplicate the weight and velocity in any .357 Magnum carbine, rifle, or even long barrel revolver. It was a 140 grain bullet at 1400 feet per second.

Last as velocity is the main factor that dictates muzzle energy a lighter but faster bullet will always give more energy thst a heavier slower bullet. If, and it's a big if, if highest possible muzzle energy in a load that is safe in the weapon is your main goal.

There was once an ideal 140 grain Speer in both JSP and JHP factory loading in .357 that would answer your demand. Any cartridge designed to kill a man...as that primarily what all the Speer "Lawman" factory ammunition was...will be adequate on muntjac, fallow, roe.

A 140 grain bullet is optimal as velocity is realistically achievable yet you will get a better trajectory than a 158 bullet and better down range performance that a 125 grain bullet. It ought to be the best of the three weights.

But as others say MUST to be legal in UK meet the performance figures set down for, where relevant, muzzle energy and/or velocity.
 
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You won't get 1700 ft-lbs, never gonna happen. You'll get 1000 ft-lbs easily enough and for woodland muntjac it'll be great. If you want 1700 ft-lbs from a pistol cartridge then 44 Mag is the one to go for.
Michael Eatley who runs Muntjacstalker - About us will accommodate you with your 357. He was fine with me taking mine. I didn't book in the end due to other commitments.

You'll need 1700fps with a 158gr and 1900 with a 125gr. Quickload is good but take it with a pinch of salt and compare against proper load data like this Take Aim at Rifle Reloading Data | Hodgdon Reloading

Depending on the chamber and action of your rifle you can often load bullets a fair amount out f the case with 357 but measure your chamber and cycle a few dummy round before taking the plunge.

The fly in the ointment here is the need for Expanding ammunition. Muntjac are covered by the Deer Acts so anyone using a pistol-calibre carbine needs their FAC Conditioned for HP or SP, and an expanding ammo holding. Range ammo (such as Lead 157gr FP) isn't 'designed to expand'.

The ban on rounds of 'expanding' pistol ammunition AND missiles was the real reason for the EU Directive on Firearms, which was duly enacted in the UK Firearms Acts (Amendment) Regulations 1992. This led to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 whereby, due to an 'administrative oversight', ALL Expanding including SP rifle ammunition & missiles was prohibited. We're still lumbered with the consequences of the HS Michael Howard's incompetence.

The upshoot is that Hollow-Point and SP pistol ammunition & bullets are now expressly banned under international law. There isn't a quarry use for such under UK law, or an exemption as there is for the rifle calibres used in deerstalking.

That's a statement of fact. Even if an FLD grants the 'expanding' authorisation, a supply of suitable ammo & bullets for Muntjac/CWD stalking isn't going to be on every RFD's shelves. Just thought I'd mention this..... :oops:
 
I don't get the above. Since BOTH .429" AND .358" using rifles exist. And not just "pistol" calibres but .444 Marlin and .358 Winchester etc., I think you are incorrect.

And by law any Winchester 94 or Rossi is a rifle then both bullets for loading and factory ammunition is available. And, of course for "handguns" for humane dispatch.

So I believe your thinking is muddled.
 
Sinistral, I have 357 Mag for fox and AOLQ, and plenty of factory expanding ammunition and unloaded expanding bullets.

I didn't have trouble getting the permission, the bullets or the ammunition, the latter was in stock at my RFD.

Hannams Reloading and list expanding pistol calibre bullets and I know Henry Kranks stock them as that's where I got mine.
When I bought my .458" (expanding) bullets at the Shooting Show right next to it on the shelf was expanding .452" Hornady's and just down from them were 44 cal Hornady's, also expanding.

So that's .357, .429 and .452 expanding bullets that I've seen in real life in the UK.

Suffice to say your statement of fact confuses me.
 
The fly in the ointment here is the need for Expanding ammunition. Muntjac are covered by the Deer Acts so anyone using a pistol-calibre carbine needs their FAC Conditioned for HP or SP, and an expanding ammo holding. Range ammo (such as Lead 157gr FP) isn't 'designed to expand'.

The ban on rounds of 'expanding' pistol ammunition AND missiles was the real reason for the EU Directive on Firearms, which was duly enacted in the UK Firearms Acts (Amendment) Regulations 1992. This led to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 whereby, due to an 'administrative oversight', ALL Expanding including SP rifle ammunition & missiles was prohibited. We're still lumbered with the consequences of the HS Michael Howard's incompetence.

The upshoot is that Hollow-Point and SP pistol ammunition & bullets are now expressly banned under international law. There isn't a quarry use for such under UK law, or an exemption as there is for the rifle calibres used in deerstalking.

That's a statement of fact. Even if an FLD grants the 'expanding' authorisation, a supply of suitable ammo & bullets for Muntjac/CWD stalking isn't going to be on every RFD's shelves. Just thought I'd mention this..... :oops:


No you dont need expanding ammo for Deer expanding is mentioned nowhere in the Deer act especially under types of Ammunition allowed

only Soft point or Hollow point (pedantic i know ) you could have a Titanium Bullet if it has a hollow point its deer legal even tho it wont expand at all and would eb S1 as its not expanding plenty of Match bullets are described as Hollow point so are deer legal but S1 on an other argument ballistic or Polymer Tip are not described as SP or HP so even S5 expanding poly tip technically isnt deer legal
 
....unless you're in Scotland where you need a bullet that expands in a predictable way. Which is pretty vague.

As as regards the SP/HP thing, I agree. Hence why I think that cast bullets with a small hollow point are perfectly legal. That been said, HO guidelines does specify "soft nosed or hollow nosed (expanding) ammunition" so I don't think a titanium hollow point would be deemed legal.

However this is irrelevant to the OP's concerns :) especially since proper expanding bullets ARE readily available
 
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....unless you're in Scotland where you need a bullet that expands in a predictable way. Which is pretty vague.

As as regards the SP/HP thing, I agree. Hence why I think that cast bullets with a small hollow point are perfectly legal. That been said, HO guidelines does specify "soft nosed or hollow nosed (expanding) ammunition" so I don't think a titanium hollow point would be deemed legal.

However this is irrelevant to the OP's concerns :) especially since proper expanding bullets ARE readily available

yes but the Deer act which is the Actual law only says Soft point or hollow point

Deer Act 1991

and why isnt cast lead soft point any way its the same end it dosnt say it must be a Jacketed Soft Point does it ;)
 
I agree with you, I was just pointing out what HO guidelines says.

Technically, going by the Deer Act you're good to use North Fork Cup Point solids or Woodleigh Hydrostatic solids since they both have hollow noses.
However I wouldn't want to test that in court, hence the HO reference.

I agree with cast as well but a little hollow point in it takes away the confusion as it is a expanding hollow point. Boxes ticked :)
 
My Rossi single shot loves the 158 grn round nose flat point cast bullet. Cast with lead wheel weights and home made lube, this is an accurate load ( I have tried Bullseye powder and Unique) the Unique powder proved to be good for me at a moderate velocity. I have Humanely Dispatched (legally) everything from a 400 Kilo Limousin bullock to Muntjac with this versatile cartridge and its variety of possible loadings.
 
Forster...get via Hannam's...make a hollow pointing tool for their trimmer. Which is why the thing is more versatile that the Sinclair trimmer. Works well. But be aware that ammunitiom so altered WILL then require you possess appropriate authority on your FAC.
 
Sinistral, I have 357 Mag for fox and AOLQ, and plenty of factory expanding ammunition and unloaded expanding bullets.

I didn't have trouble getting the permission, the bullets or the ammunition, the latter was in stock at my RFD.

Hannams Reloading and list expanding pistol calibre bullets and I know Henry Kranks stock them as that's where I got mine.
When I bought my .458" (expanding) bullets at the Shooting Show right next to it on the shelf was expanding .452" Hornady's and just down from them were 44 cal Hornady's, also expanding.

So that's .357, .429 and .452 expanding bullets that I've seen in real life in the UK.

Suffice to say your statement of fact confuses me.

Okay. Just to clarify … if I’ve understood your post correctly, your .38/.357 is authorised for Fox and AOLQ, and you have the standard ‘expanding’ ammo condition below on your FAC?


The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles for such ammunition in .38/.357 and for use only in connection with:
(a) the lawful shooting of deer;
(b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
(c) the humane killing of animals;
(d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.
 
It's broken down a little different but yes. I have a bullet point which lists my calibres and what I can use them for and then I have a seperate bullet point which has the exact wording you posted except it doesn't have any calibres mentioned in it.
Basically the first point says "X,Y and Z can be used for 1,2,3" and the second point says I can have expanding if the rifle is conditioned for anything on that list. So the .357 comes primarily under (b).

Hope that makes sense.
 
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I've asked the same question of another forum member as I'm aquiring a 0.357 soon, his suggestion was to homeload these.

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Bullets :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: .357 38 CAL :: 38 Cal .357 140 gr FTX® (357 Mag)

Over H110 they should be well above the 1000 ft-lb limit for muntjac and are designed to expand in a predictable manner, which based on the bullet's sales pitch is the issue with 0.357 HPs at rifle velocities, saying that you get surface blow up.

Not that I'm planning on using the 0.357 for deer i just wondered about the possibility.
 
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The fly in the ointment here is the need for Expanding ammunition. Muntjac are covered by the Deer Acts so anyone using a pistol-calibre carbine needs their FAC Conditioned for HP or SP, and an expanding ammo holding. Range ammo (such as Lead 157gr FP) isn't 'designed to expand'.

The ban on rounds of 'expanding' pistol ammunition AND missiles was the real reason for the EU Directive on Firearms, which was duly enacted in the UK Firearms Acts (Amendment) Regulations 1992. This led to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 whereby, due to an 'administrative oversight', ALL Expanding including SP rifle ammunition & missiles was prohibited. We're still lumbered with the consequences of the HS Michael Howard's incompetence.

The upshoot is that Hollow-Point and SP pistol ammunition & bullets are now expressly banned under international law. There isn't a quarry use for such under UK law, or an exemption as there is for the rifle calibres used in deerstalking.

That's a statement of fact. Even if an FLD grants the 'expanding' authorisation, a supply of suitable ammo & bullets for Muntjac/CWD stalking isn't going to be on every RFD's shelves. Just thought I'd mention this..... :oops:

Both my local RFD's stock expanding 0.357 ammunition and I had a 0.357 rifle granted just yesterday for target and Vermin with AOLQ with allowance for expanding ammunition, chatting to the chaps at my local RFD yesterday they said that locally 0.357 was commonly granted for fox around buildings and noise sensitive areas, as it can be down loaded but will be more humane than 0.22 LR at subsonic speeds.

My ticket has the standard expanding ammunition in connection with the control of XY&Z, and all calibres used for such have the quantity for the calibre listed plus 'EXP' next to the calibre e.g. xxx 0.22H EXP or xxx 0.38/.357EXP

Dauntsey Guns: .357, RR2317721, Geco - .357 Rem Mag 158gr Hollow Point


 
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Hornady makes 140-gr LeveRevolution ammo in .357 for rifles. MV is about 1,850 fps /1065 FT-LBS and about 1,680 FPS at 100 yards; so the .357 at 125 yards is still carrying more energy than one from a revolver at 10 yards.

Hornady also sells 180-gr .357 ammo and bullets designed for deer and boar.

I would not worry about a Speer Gold Dot 140-gr HP, FP or a Hornady 140-gr HP "blowing up on the surface" of a deer. These bullets made for .357 defense rounds from a revolver, will not even open up from a snubnose .38 Special at point blank range, because the velocity is too low.

The Remington 158-gr exits my 20-inch carbine at over 1800 FPS, so energy is 1100+ FT-LBS. Every deer or hog I have seen shot with this has been a complete pass through, with a large wound channel.
 
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