Countrysports

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kuwinda

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At the outset let me say (for the benefit of admin) that this whole matter has been to court – and the undernoted presented as evidence – it’s therefore the truth, ergo not defamatory.

In January this year I took a three day ‘all inclusive’ boar shooting trip with Mr Michael Roberts’ ‘Countrysports’ agency – this included all trophy fees for boar and also all female deer – but not male deer. During the safety briefing on the first day of the hunt, the head guide, through the interpreter, told us (10 hunters present) that we would not be allowed to shoot either roe or fallow females, but that we would be allowed to shoot red deer stags – at no additional cost. Naturally we were a bit surprised at this and questioned the guide several times, but it was confirmed. Mr Roberts was not present during the first day, having failed to clear his rifle and luggage correctly through UK customs – they never left the UK.

During the day two stags were shot, one by me. To be honest this was in some ways disappointing since I shoot loads of deer and really went there to shoot boar – maybe that’s being churlish? That evening when we went back to the hotel Mr Roberts tells us all ‘What the guide told you was wrong – you’ll have to pay for the stags’. There was a great deal of heated discussion and raised voices at this but nothing resolved.

Long story short – after returning home I received an invoice from Mr Roberts for about £800, disputed this and was taken to court. Mr Roberts didn’t dispute that we had been clearly told what we were – only that the guide had the power to do so in his absence. The Judge said I was ‘Duped’ by the Poles and would need to prove that the guide had the power to change the provisions of Mr Roberts contract – with the strong hint that this would be very difficult – which it is. I am not a lawyer but have studied law and fully realise the very grey areas that surround ostensible authority of agents. I just can’t afford either the energy or further time off work to pursue this matter and it’s not worth getting lawyers involved so I have paid up to be rid of the matter.

I will leave you to make your own conclusions on the above, but would offer the following general observations on agents:-

  • If you can possibly avoid using an agent don’t use one.
  • If you can’t avoid using an agent (and in some cases, e.g. Poland, you can’t) make sure he’s the only agent and isn’t working through a ‘partner’/sub agent/middleman. If this is the case he will have two masters – you, the punter/lowest form of life, and the person he is buying the hunt from – who he needs to keep sweet to make sure he has hunts to sell in future. If in doubt ask, and if this is the case stay well clear.
  • References on a website are totally worthless – you’ve never seen a bad one! The only recommendation that can be worth anything is a personal one from someone you trust who has had experience of the agents handling of a problem – not just a hunt where everything goes according to plan – this is worthless information.
  • You will never know the true mettle of anyone until something goes wrong – only then will you discover if your agent is working for you or to put coin in his own pocket or that of his cohorts.

I have hunted in a few countries (Denmark, Austria, Poland, Zimbabwe and Tanzania) and this is the first and last time I will use an agent. This has certainly put me off boar hunting (for a while anyway!)

Comments?

 
My only problem with threads like this...........

Is the other party a member of the forum and, therefore, an ability to respond to any complaint and give their version. I run my own business and these things whilst unpleasant always have two sides.

Guy
 
My only problem with threads like this...Is the other party a member of the forum and, therefore, an ability to respond to any complaint and give their version. I run my own business and these things whilst unpleasant always have two sides. Guy

Yes, he is a member of this site and, although he assures me he has changed his method of charging trophy fees, I will never go with him again, in fact I will never go on any trips that charge trophy fees as there are enough Agents now that charge an 'all inclusive' fee.
I am talking about Driven Boar and not selective trophy shoots from high seats over feed stations.
 
Never been a paying client of Mike Roberts so can't pass comment, all that I can say is that he takes quite a bit of stalking in my area, and none of the estates seem have had a problem with him, pays up front for days even when he has been unable to fill them.
 
Yes, I have been watching this thread but after seeing more anonymous posts with wild inaccuracies, I've decided to respond. First of all, EmC who will not give his real name is wrong. This trip was a fixed price (for all boar and all female deer) this was clearly stated (and also stated twice in everyone's booking contract that they would have to pay for any stags or other permitted male deer).
I think I know who Ogive is (so why don't you give us your real name??) I have no control over what the airlines and customs and baggage carriers do , but appear to have been blamed for Lufthansa's mistake [which they finally admitted to and paid me full compensation for the missing/delayed baggage and having to get my baggage returned to me].
Kuwinda's account is more or less accurate but it's what he does NOT say in his account which is important. For some reason, which still baffles me. when the guide told the group when they were in the Forest that they would not have to pay for stags, not one person thought to text me or call me on my mobile to check (plenty of folk had telephoned me the day before when we were in Poland and there were flight delays - so they knew they could contact me!). It's no good complaining i was not there (I had to wait in the hotel because the airport in Poland said they would send us the delayed baggage - if I was not there to sign for it in person, they would not have left the baggage and rifles) .
Kuwinda and Ogive were (and maybe still are?) convinced that the Polish District would not charge me for the stags they shot. I had to pay the district myself for the stag that Kuwinda shot. For some reason, Paul at Barony (another person hiding behind a username) implies I profited from this. Wrong, I had to pay for the stags which were shot so I'm not sure why Paul at Barony thinks I am wealthy enough to have paid well over one thousand pounds and just to forget trying to get the money off the two people who shot the stags?? I did NOT add anything to the cost of the stags. In the court, the Sheriff said (and I quote because I wrote this down at the time) "surely, Mr Archibald, if the guide says you can shoot stags for no charge when Mr Roberts' written confirmation says you have to pay - then that's your lookout?". Ian Archibald did not respond to his comment. I took legal advice about this and Kuwinda's assertion he was too busy to fight the action may be right, but the Sheriff's comment says it all - if he is so convinced he was in the right, he had the right to continue instead of posting his complaints on this forum.
I'm aware that my response may kick off a long and whining series of replies with folk saying I am wrong and they are right. But I object to having negative and even snide comments made by people who hide behind usernames which affect my reputation.
It's also been forgotten by Kuwinda, that at the time, I fully sympathised with his predicament. I tried to negotiate with the District to waive the fees. But if people ignore the clear and concise conditions written in the booking form, they have to accept responsibility for their own actions.
 
Why did the guide not pay for the stags? It appears on the face of it that he made the error after all.

The guide appears to be in the employment of countrysports. In my book that makes you liable for the misinformation that your clients received. I think it's quite reasonable for the clients to accept the word of the guide, seeing as ultimately he was your employee.

Also, it's unacceptable of you to accuse people of hiding behind a user name on a public forum. Particularly one who's members freely admit to owning firearms on. Can you not understand why people would want to protect both their identities?

I thank the OP for providing feedback as I too am looking for a european boar hunt. The information provided makes that task a little simpler.

Best
MJ
 
It's good to hear both sides.

Both parties had a written contract, that clearly stated that stags had to be paid for, the guide for the day , is that a guide!!. He is not under the direct employment of the Agent.

As said , the party could have quite easily have contacted the agent to clarify the situation, by the sounds of it they heard what they wanted to hear.

I do not know or have any dealings with Countrysport, I'm just reading it as I see it.

Working abroad does have it's problems, notably language barriers and red tape[that's why I wouldn't dream of doing it!!], the agent is there for a purpose - the first point of contact, if that protocol had been used then there would not have been a problem.
Incidently I have never heard of clients being given stags "free gratis" in Poland, I think a bit of niavity or greed may have played a part in the desition to squeeze the trigger
 
If you're selling goods and services using a third party (Even if hat third party then sub contracts out the work) then you as a business have to accept some responsibility. I've never had any dealings with countrysports, but if what the OP states is true, and it appears to be,then I think it's only reasonable that the client take the guide at face value.

Naivity may have been a factor, but it's unfair to point the finger. Greed, well, that could work three ways could it not?
 
If you're selling goods and services using a third party (Even if hat third party then sub contracts out the work) then you as a business have to accept some responsibility. I've never had any dealings with countrysports, but if what the OP states is true, and it appears to be,then I think it's only reasonable that the client take the guide at face value.

Naivity may have been a factor, but it's unfair to point the finger. Greed, well, that could work three ways could it not?

I can't really argue with any of that:)

It is always dificult when dealing with a third party, standards have to be kept and if you are not present then it can go down the drain pretty quickly.

It basically comes down to comunication - there was obviously a break down in this case and the client has had to pay the price.

It is never good for a client to leave unhappy, no matter what the situation is.

For the sake of maintaining a good reputation within a very competitive market, it may have been better for the agent to take the burden of the cost.
 
"Yes, I have been watching this thread but after seeing more anonymous posts with wild inaccuracies, I've decided to respond. First of all, EmC who will not give his real name is wrong."

Michael, What was I wrong about?
I contacted you and gave you the details of the trip I was on when you contacted me telling me about your trips to to Poland when I tried to get a party interested in Slovakia.
In my case we had a 'trophy deposit' lodged with you which was not returned in full due to currency fluctuation the rest of my dissatisfaction with you, I told you about privately by PM.
 
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Why did the guide not pay for the stags? It appears on the face of it that he made the error after all.

The guide appears to be in the employment of countrysports. In my book that makes you liable for the misinformation that your clients received. I think it's quite reasonable for the clients to accept the word of the guide, seeing as ultimately he was your employee.

Also, it's unacceptable of you to accuse people of hiding behind a user name on a public forum. Particularly one who's members freely admit to owning firearms on. Can you not understand why people would want to protect both their identities?


I thank the OP for providing feedback as I too am looking for a european boar hunt. The information provided makes that task a little simpler.

MJ

MJ - you are guessing. No the guides are not in the employment of Countrysports. It's no different if a syndicate or group of people book a day shooting in the UK - the guide is in the employment of the State district or in the case of the UK, usually by an estate. I agree that the guide or the district made a mistake or it was lost in translation - but ultimately, it's the written conditions which count , which is why i tried negotiating with the district. However, I was bound by written conditions just my clients were. As anyone books a holiday or buys a washing machine or rents car - there are booking conditions or purchase conditions and they are there for a reason. It's not as if Ian Archibald was new to this - he had been on a trip with me the year before with exactly the same conditions.
You still have not addressed the issue - if the offer to shoot stags for free was too good to be true (and a number of people in the group agreed they were very surprised by what they were hearing) - then why did they not check when they all knew what the written conditions were?
Sorry, but that's tosh about people owning firearms wanting to hide their identity. There are people on this forum who do not hide their identity and also on other forums who use their own names. If you read any of the shooting magazines in the letters columns, or newsletters from organisations such as BASC etc. - people have their names written out and they clearly own shotguns or rifles. Sorry, but the main reason people hide their identities on the internet is because they think they can hide and therefore behave / talk / write differently because they assume they are anonymous.
I presume therefore you think it's OK for the OP to post anonymously as have others, but for my own name to be published?
For the record, I originally posted my own identity a few years ago in the early days of this forum - but I think my intro. has been lost over time with the various upgrades and forum updates.
The case went to court so it's in the public domain. The OP abandoned the case , unsurprisingly after the Sherrif made his comments.
 
MJ - you are guessing. No the guides are not in the employment of Countrysports. It's no different if a syndicate or group of people book a day shooting in the UK - the guide is in the employment of the State district or in the case of the UK, usually by an estate. I agree that the guide or the district made a mistake or it was lost in translation - but ultimately, it's the written conditions which count , which is why i tried negotiating with the district. However, I was bound by written conditions just my clients were. As anyone books a holiday or buys a washing machine or rents car - there are booking conditions or purchase conditions and they are there for a reason. It's not as if Ian Archibald was new to this - he had been on a trip with me the year before with exactly the same conditions.
You still have not addressed the issue - if the offer to shoot stags for free was too good to be true (and a number of people in the group agreed they were very surprised by what they were hearing) - then why did they not check when they all knew what the written conditions were?
Sorry, but that's tosh about people owning firearms wanting to hide their identity. There are people on this forum who do not hide their identity and also on other forums who use their own names. If you read any of the shooting magazines in the letters columns, or newsletters from organisations such as BASC etc. - people have their names written out and they clearly own shotguns or rifles. Sorry, but the main reason people hide their identities on the internet is because they think they can hide and therefore behave / talk / write differently because they assume they are anonymous.
I presume therefore you think it's OK for the OP to post anonymously as have others, but for my own name to be published?
For the record, I originally posted my own identity a few years ago in the early days of this forum - but I think my intro. has been lost over time with the various upgrades and forum updates.
The case went to court so it's in the public domain. The OP abandoned the case , unsurprisingly after the Sherrif made his comments.

I'm afraid you have missed the point on two counts. People who hold FAC's and SGC's may wish to remain annonymous. Others like yourself do not. In any case some discretion should be shown and deliberately posting somebodies name shows a real lack of proffesionalism. And respect for your client.

Secondly, you run a business where YOU take money from clients and the guides, whoever pays their wages are ultimately a third party contractor employed by your business. If you had any kind of common decency then you would accept responsibility for your own companies issues.

Taking a client to court rather than reaching some other kind of agreement with them really does speak volumes. I would have thought someone who has been in business for so long would show more respect for their clients, more discretion and common business sense.

I'm sure it wouldn't take too much effort to come to some arrangement with your clients who have lost out financially to ensure they're happy. You could even improve your reputation by doing the decent thing. Just a thought.
 
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"Yes, I have been watching this thread but after seeing more anonymous posts with wild inaccuracies, I've decided to respond. First of all, EmC who will not give his real name is wrong."

Michael, What was I wrong about?
I contacted you and gave you the details of the trip I was on when you contacted me telling me about your trips to to Poland when I tried to get a party interested in Slovakia.
In my case we had a 'trophy deposit' lodged with you which was not returned in full 'due to currency fluctuation' the rest of my dissatisfaction with you, I told you about privately by PM.

EMcC i cannot look up your booking unless you tell me your real name so I cannot fully address your points whilst you remain anonymous. Your comment about currency fluctuation implies i profited. I used to work in pounds sterling and wrote in booking booking conditions that i would use the tourist exchange rate as published in a National newspaper. That did not work - I had people underpaying or not paying (bad debts in any business are bad news) and some people looked up the exchange rate on the internet and expected me to use the bank interchange exchange rate which none of us lesser mortals can use! I also used to work on a 'pay for what you shoot' basis so that the base price was much cheaper and folk only paid trophy fees - that did not work either because of non payers. More recently I have worked on a fixed price basis (all trophy fees for male and female boar plus permitted female deer and usually foxes were free). Fixed price deals are always more expensive.
If you still have a greivance about a trip which was made several years ago, why don't you PM me with your real name and I'll look into it? I looked up your private PM but there was no mention about currency complaints there - this is the first time I have seen it.
As I say, PM me with your real name and I'll look up the details
 
And now for the other side of the story.

Our Polish hosts were excellent. Hospitable and courteous.

The hotel was basic but really quite good given the time of year (they'd normally have been shut for the winter)

The sport was plentiful and our drives well organised. (all except females on day one that is)

The transport was spot on, amazing where VW transporter mini buses can go in the snow, with the right tyres.

All in all, I'd love to go back... but not with Countrysports.
 
Guys,
I have been with agents that charge an all in fee which includes, flight, transport from the time you land until you return to the airport, food, accomodation, licence and a small amount of drink and tips for the beaters.
Once you have paid for the trip, the only money you need from the time you leave Heathrow is for 'Duty Free' and nibbles for in between times in the forest (provided the paper doesn't rustle) unless you want to celebrate back at the hunting lodge after a particularly good day:D then in house drinks are available at a good price.
Most of the hunting is well organised and 'productive' BUT, being wild and in unfenced areas, the beaters do sometimes have a problem getting the Boar to pass me:rolleyes:, but so long as some Boar pass through the line then I enjoy the company and get an adrenalin rush just to hear the other guys getting stuck in.
I have had my share of 'unproductive' trips but the overall bag has been good and I have also had trips where the overall bag has been a disaster but in a case like that there is sometimes/most times a rebate given.
I know you do not travel all that way just to get some of your money back but that usually is only when all else has fails.
I am booked up for three trips this winter and am hoping it is my turn to be in the hot spot so am looking forward to it.
Will keep you posted if I do well:D but will slink off if I don't:oops:
 
I have been quiet on this until now and in truth have little to add.

I would agree that too often posts like this sound like sour grapes and I hope that as far as possible I have been objective in my comments. This is for the benefit of those thinking of making a similar trip.

For the record I gave up the chase because having taken legal advice myself I realised fully that the heart of the issue was the matter of the power of the guide to alter the conditions of the hunt. Having then taken further advice it was apparent that this is a very grey area legally and not worth further expense and more days off work that I can ill afford. Also for the record there was no-one present that morning who, after questioning the quide two, three, four times was in any doubt that from his perspective he was telling the truth.

For anyone thinking of booking a trip abroad I would urge that they consider very carefully who the agent is acting for - his clients or himself and those he books his hunts through. In this case it has never been clear what the trail was to those who were actually taking the money. You might want to sift through the posts above and think who did what, when - and why?

Mr Roberts complains of anonymous posts impinging his reputation - my view is that the health of his reputation is in his hands. Reputations are hard to make and very easy to loose - in areas such as this I would say word of mouth (I may be wrong?) is probably 90% of the battle. Once you start picking at the edges of 'reputation' the true nature of the person becomes apparent. To leave anyone (let alone many) walking away feeling 'done' and taking paying clients to court against the satisfaction of ego/pride/whatever will ultimately be self destructing.

(As an aside - someone somewhere above mentioned 'greed' - I'm assuming greed for the trophy? I would need to say that I do shoot a lot of deer, 54 last year and up to I think about 30 this year, including some red stags which were easily twice the size of the one in question. If anyone were to suggest that I was gagging to shoot a beast just above a staggie in size then I'm afraid I'm a bit lost for words)
 
Well, predictably we have now had complaints so I have had to remove anything that could be potentially construed as libellous or not strictly related to the original case. I have left the posts by people who have commented based on first hand experiences with the agent in question where no one has disputed the events as they happened. I have also left the observations of third parties that are strictly objective.

The message here is clear, we go abroad for the purposes of experiencing something different and for a sense of adventure and as part of that there are inherent risks. Language barriers, cultural differences and misunderstandings about liabilities are just some of the many potential pitfalls and highlight the need to fully agree as many eventualities as possible up front with the agent.

Arguably the true test of any company, delivering any service, anywhere, is how they deal with problems when things go wrong and things will go wrong with any company. The best you can do is research carefully in advance, talk to previous customers, get recommendations from people who have been before (there are plenty of wild boar veterans on here!) and then go and enjoy your trip but remember that you aren't in leafy Blighty any more and the potential is always there for the unexpected!

Alex
 
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