Training young Deer dog, help!

Lewis T3

Well-Known Member
Hi,

Have a young pup Labradour 5 month old and looking to train him to track deer. I have 2 other dogs I use as beating and picking up dogs so have trained dogs to work before and work them throughout the season.

The plan is to use the pup for guided stalking (if allowed) and on my own syndicate ( still working on the syndicate)

Few questions:

Any books dvds etc that people can recommend?

Any dog trainers that specialise in deer tracking in north wales or north west?
 
A very simple to start your dog off is to get a broom Handle with a length of cord on like a fishing pole and tie a deer head to it , make a simple shot site with hair from the head, and with the wind behind you drag the head say 75/100m in a straight line. Leave 3/4 hours and go do the track making sure the pole and head are at the end and your pup is on a tracking lead.

Long grass is a good place to start moving into forest at a later date.

Your 5 month old pup should have little problem with this and with encouragement and at the end LOTS of praise and reward then pick up the pole and swing it about with the head on the other end and let the pup chase, they go nuts for it !!!

Always ending success and your terms.

Any my probs pm me your phone no I'll be happy to talk you through the next stages as required.

Lee
 
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Hi,

I'm sure that there is someone on the SD that can help you our in your area. If you really want something to watch you could try this from NZ

Watch The Deer Dog Training Blue Print Online | Vimeo On Demand on Vimeo

But be aware, what they do in NZ is very different from what they do in Europe. He has a YouTube channel as well:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBdzjIyi4AMiHymcFrIbraQ & Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Big-Game-Indicating-Dogs-361663340697910/?fref=nf

Niels Sondergaards book cover the subject very well, or if you want a very simple out line Guy Wallace's book is only £6 from the BDS

Bavarian Mountain Hound society hold training events regularly - your nearest would be Cannock I guess.

Training Society of GB

UK Scent hound association and UK Deer tracking and recovery should be able to help you out.
https://www.facebook.com/UKSHA-502164506587351/
UKDTR UK Deer Track and Recovery

Hope the links work,

Good luck

Siggy
 
Thanks chaps

good tip Lee I've only got some feet at the minute but due out on the Roe Bucks end of the month so will make sure I keep a head.

Siggy good links they all worked! hopefully I find someone local to help out
 
Thanks chaps

good tip Lee I've only got some feet at the minute but due out on the Roe Bucks end of the month so will make sure I keep a head.

Siggy good links they all worked! hopefully I find someone local to help out

Lewis you really need to be keeping away from roe in your training and sticking with red, fallow sika. roe with training will cause you issues further down the line when you start tracking for real, I have red cleaves and heads if you want and this weekend I will be in wales I need to find the address tonight and hopefully will be close if you want to call and collect to help you on your way, atb wayne
 
easier working with large species, roe smell different more enticing so working with red or say fallow and getting the groundwork set is far easier than training with roe as once a dog has chased, caught roe switching it off a hot roe scent is very very difficult and almost impossible.
working a cold scent for say a red for real a roe gets up or even crosses the path the dog will want that chase it remembers or the enticing smell more than the harder work, stick to building the block work to a steady dog that will follow what you want and not what it really enjoys,Tracking is simple but go to fast or miss important parts and you will regret it in the long run. what i didnt say earlier today as i was in the middle of work,wounded roe deer can be a difficult track because of the nature they will back track and move through an area around and round it is hard for a dog the chances of you coming onto a hot scent with other roe is high the dog if not trained correctly will switch to the hot scent to chase as this is more exciting, also high game in the beginning is easier to lay a trail with more surface area and scent leaving a good signiture for the dog to follow, only work for success never not completing by making things too difficult in the beginning small steps forward gives a better outcome, people chase a longer track over a high timescale too fast and make it too difficult resulting in putting the dog off, atb wayne
ps I am off to tregaron if you know anyone i can leave them with for you to collect or come direct.
 
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Sounds good Wayne thanks let me know the address when you find out and I'll see how close it is.

I'm in north wales so its about a 3 hour drive thanks for the offer Wayne very kind but a bit too far.

ill have to book some stalking on fallow or reds! Soon.
 
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Sent you a pm got what you need fallow. sika feet fallow head blood and fallow skin.
 
Gday Siggy. Do you know if we can purchase a digital copy of the 6 quid guy wallace book.
 
Kit/muntjac trading on here sells them.

Not a lot of money for the guy wallace booklet, but also not a lot of info in it, more decent advice offered on here in my opinion.
I'd say save ur 6 quid and save up for Songgardens? book far far far better book.
 
Kit/muntjac trading on here sells them.

Not a lot of money for the guy wallace booklet, but also not a lot of info in it, more decent advice offered on here in my opinion.
I'd say save ur 6 quid and save up for Songgardens? book far far far better book.

I agree - the Sondergaard book is much better and the production quality of the Guy Wallace book is very low. Looks like BDS have run out - it's not on their website anymore. The other thing is any of Guys books all contain effectively the same chapter on deer - if you have one, you have them all from a deer point of view.
 
Goodonya. Cheers mate.
Probably prohibitive to get posted to Aus.

I have a half eaten copy of Guy Wallace's book somewhere. The dog ate it when it came through the letter box. If I can find it and it is still readable I will scan the pages and send them to you. It is more of a pamflet than a book.
I'm not home for a week so I'll be in touch.
 
One word to summarise you and your dog's training - FUN!

Your dog is 5 month's old so is very capable of tracking.

Firstly let's assume your dog can already track, which is fact, so it is just harnessing this instinct which is the solution to the problem. Between the two of you it is the dog which can track and you who cannot so the dog is always right, it is the handler who needs to understand the dog and as you have the gun dog experience you are the perfect man for the job.

I start with a small track 10 feet approx., a head or hide hidden in a bush with a small trail leading up to it. Now here is the important part. You should have an action which initiates the start of the track. By this I mean a specific tracking collar, lead (placed onto the dog when the tracking begins) and command ("Find it, where is it?") that lets the dog know you are now looking for a deer. The dog does not immediately need to understand but this same action and command repeated over time that will suffice.

Ignore all the rumours about tap water ruining blood because of the chlorine. Nonsense! For the 10 foot track we are talking about you say the command to the dog, when the dog's nose hits the earth it is "good boy! Find it!". Now take him to the deer. This is a little bit of education for him. He is looking for it but you are Alpha so you find it. When you do give the dog loads of praise and since the session should only take 5 mins give him plenty of play and don't expect him to rag the skin. It is not necessary and especially Bavarians sometimes look at the skin as "job done, now I am dis-interested". But plenty and plenty of play. Let him off the lead for a bit and if he wants carry the hide for a bit. never let him be possessive though, you own the hide not him. So don't be afraid to stick your hand in between his mouth and the hide as to say this is mine, wait your turn. Makes life easier if you are reaching in to gralloch forgetting a possessive dog is standing over your freshly shot deer, especially where Chesapeakes are concerned! They can be very very possessive.

The most important thing is that when you do the next track the following few days or next day later it must not be anywhere near the hide has been dragged and that includes heading back to the house or car after the last session. Fresh ground always.

Now if you happen to be tracking and the dog is following the scent but about 5-15 feet off the scent but in the right direction this is just "wind throw". If you try and walk to fast with the dog or let the dog go too fast it can encourage wind scenting which is not the end of the world but is a great way for a dog to lose a track as a 90 degree bend can throw the dog wasting time. So don't be afraid to hold the dog back slightly to keep him steady and if the pup takes a full minute sucking in the scent of a clump of grass just let it work away as it is finding the scent so unbelievably good it can't get enough of it. Now this trait of taking ages on a clump of grass can be a bit annoying but in time this stops.

Once the dog is starting to track about 10 foot. Move the distance up. If you have a Saturday and the dog is easily doing 10 foot track jump to 30 feet. Just be patient and if the dogs is on track try and stay quiet. Let the dog work. In time when the dog is given the command and brought to the start of a trail it is 1 command and then absolute silence just letting the dog do its thing.

As we are soon coming into summer please remember this...."Where you track and how long you track can equate to success or failure of the practice session".

By this I mean if you lay a line over heather in a summer morning and decide to track at noon then you may find your dog unable to follow the line. Diphenols in heather inhibit enzyme activity. So by understanding what scent is (i.e. enzymatic breakdown of oils and organic material) you can better understand the how powerful a scent the dog is following. Diphenols stop enzymatic breakdown which is why very little grows in peat bogland. The heat of the day then causes evaporation which means scent literally disappears. So dragging a hide over pasture or a football field in the early learning phase is much more appropriate than heather. Once you can see your dog has easily got the idea of tracking then move to forest, then harder heather moorland and always mark your track. On pasture I will use a few sally rods with a bit of white insulation tape round the top. In forest a bit or red ribbon and in heather I use markers such as a fence line, rock or tree and always following from one to the other as the crow flies. I can then usually tell if the dog is following wind throw or the drag trail.

As for putting flecks of meat on the trail or ending the trail with food it is unnecessary. Tracking training is hunting and fun. Food is for dinner time at the home. Being out is the dogs reward so there is no need to mix food with tracking. There is no need to lay flecks of meat on the trail and even a dragged skin or head without any blood is perfectly fine. The dog can easily follow a hide trail so need to run to the ends of the earth looking for deer blood.

Other than that I hope this helps. I have been able to put a lot of this into practice. I have been helped along by the Scudd in the past in collecting parts for my dogs and have been able to put what I have said into real use.

I would just like to say that your dog is young, the season is drawing to a close and you have plenty of time. You find the hide the first few times but praise the dog. If the dog does not follow the first few times then it is what it is, so you find the deer hide, but give the dog the praise for it. Then after a while you will see how powerful their scenting ability really is even over marshland with water up to your knees!

Remember FUN FUN FUN and more FUN (oh and a sprinkling of patience as you wait for your dog to understand the game you are playing). Sometimes it is not the dog being trained, it is the handler.
 
T3 lewis is calling round tomorrow to collect sika fallow cleaves also head if he wants it and blood. He and his pup will be ok.
 
Thanks Ronan for spending the time to write such an infomative response some interesting ideas for me to try out. Also like to thank Pendle for spending the time today to discuss his dogs and methods its great to meet a local stalker with the same passion for deer and dogs as myself.

I have booked myself onto the BDS dog day at the end of May, so hope to meet many more like minded individuals and pick up even more tricks and tips to have a successful deer dog to accompany me on many a stalking experience.
 
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Highland Stalker. Your a champ bro. Thanks for the offer.
Ronan some bloody good info mate. First line couldn't be more true.
 
Not wishing to hijack the thread, but I am a few months further ahead. My hound will follow a blood trail no problems. Challenge that I have is she wants to follow every smell out there. Most of the time when stalking she is on a lead and is getting much steadier. But given half a chance she will want to follow any deer trail there is, along with fox, pheasant etc. She is getting used to the "leave it" command and is generally getting the hang of being quiet and stalking into things.

But it does require lots of patience and frequent stops to have a bit of a play. We got close into a buck the other evening, and I had forgotten to put one up the spout so we didn't get the reward, but for an hour afterwards she was like a four year old kid that's been fed two cans of IrnBru and a packet or two of Haribos.

I have the mindset of little and often this year, and priority will be bringing her on, rather than achieving a large cull.
 
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