South Yorkshire Police

kes

Well-Known Member
Whilst the Firearms team may be 'up to snuff' the chief con has gone as a result of the " you can be proud of what you did" following the recent inquest.
The replacement has agreed to step down as she was being investigated in her previous position. Not, I suspect what most rank and file officer of SYP would have wished.
Does it call into question the authoritarian police forces we know or does it argue for amalgamation ?
For me, it confirms the police and particularly Chief Cons have become a law unto themselves and Teresa May had best take this opportunity to neuter the NPCC and ensure the 'service' ethic is paramount in any future force which may replace/amalgamate with SYP.
Were I PM I would remove all chief cons and make a single person the CPO of England, one for Wales and one for Scotland; supervised by a parliamentary committee ,they would never again develop the power they see as their right ATM.
Any other views?
Should we ask Andy Marsh ?
 
whilst the firearms team may be 'up to snuff' the chief con has gone as a result of the " you can be proud of what you did" following the recent inquest.
The replacement has agreed to step down as she was being investigated in her previous position. Not, i suspect what most rank and file officer of syp would have wished.
Does it call into question the authoritarian police forces we know or does it argue for amalgamation ?
For me, it confirms the police and particularly chief cons have become a law unto themselves and teresa may had best take this opportunity to neuter the npcc and ensure the 'service' ethic is paramount in any future force which may replace/amalgamate with syp.
Were i pm i would remove all chief cons and make a single person the cpo of england, one for wales and one for scotland; supervised by a parliamentary committee ,they would never again develop the power they see as their right atm.
Any other views?
Should we ask andy marsh ?
masons!!!
 
A&S has had about 4 chief constables in about 5 years, all gone in disgrace and all under the tenure of Sue Mountstevens.
She still has the balls to stand for re election.
I think the whole police force is too big to be managed by one but a single governing body might be the way to go.
 
SYP does not have a proud history and its name has become a byword for ineptitude, criminal neglect, conspiracy to pervert the course of justice etc. everything that May said. The one thing they crow about is catching the Yorkshire Ripper. I hail from South Yorkshire and have experienced their incompetence and self-serving and conspiratorial tendencies first hand in the 1980s. It is true to say that they waded into the miners at Orgreave in a manner that would impress William the B'Stard (famed for his genocide of the Anglo-Danes in the Harrying of The North).

The SYP is un-reformable, the culture too ingrained and too many special interests. Orgreave itself and the conspiracy to frame the miners for riot should have been enough to cause its abolition, but Thatcher owed them a favour vis a vis the miners.

So the force began to adopt an air of invincibility and impunity so it is not surprising that they would seek to protect themselves over Hillsborough. I was lucky not to lose family members there. My brother-in-law broke his leg the week before and so he and my nephew could not go. Though from SY, they were ardent Liverpool fans.

Hillsborough happened, and then a whole new generation of officers, weaned on the SYP culture contrived to turn a blind eye to the Rotherham Child Abuse scandal.

My fervent wish is that the force be abolished, the whole senior command struck off, but able lower ranks (there must be some, surely), to re-apply for employment in a new regional force known as Greater Yorkshire Police Service, with North and West Yorkshire subsumed, along with Cleveland and Humberside (these latter forces leave a lot to be desired - recall CC Colin Westwood, refusing to step down on the orders of Home Secretary Blunkett, and the Cleveland CC famed for his zero tolerance approach who was also questionable).

Led by a Police Commissioner for the GYPS, and with an influx of senior army officers who know how to maintain an oath of service, especially dedicated to the SY "command". With Assistant commissioners for each of the erstwhile areas now merged.

Meanwhile, lets not forget the scandal of those who managed to ingratiate themselves into senior positions at other forces. They should face investigation and judgement by juries.

Thank goodness for juries.
 
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I seem to remember they only caught the Ripper due to some bobby on the beat nicking him despite the huge operation to catch him
 
If Teresa May had her way there would be no British police force. We would be in the hands of G4S
ILB
 
To sort the Police Service out you would need to abolish it all and start again. Same goes for parliment both seem to be self serving and only after what theya can get.
 
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To sort the Police Service out you would need to abolish it all and start again. Same goes for parliment both seem to be self serving and only after what theya can get.

If the police are so bad, why don't you do it? I'm sure you'd shine. I don't doubt that you'd be far better than any of them at informing a family member that a loved one had died, at seizing the clothing of a still warm murder victim whilst preserving its forensic integrity as the poor soul's blood still ran from the trolley pooling at your feet, at interviewing a rapist or murderer, fighting for your life with some diseased drug crazed moron, presenting expert evidence in the Crown Court and performing fingertip searches for minute shreds of evidence in houses unfit to keep animals in. And all for less money than lots of supermarket managers and driving instructors earn. Yes, the police are only after what they can get.
Open your eyes, man.
 
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If the police are so bad, why don't you do it? I'm sure you'd shine. I don't doubt that you'd be far better than any of them at informing a family member that a loved one had died, at seizing the clothing of a still warm murder victim whilst preserving its forensic integrity as the poor soul's blood still ran from the trolley pooling at your feet, at interviewing a rapist or murderer, fighting for your life with some diseased drug crazed moron, presenting expert evidence in the Crown Court and performing fingertip searches for minute shreds of evidence in houses unfit to keep animals in. And all for less money than lots of supermarket managers and driving instructors earn. Yes, the police are only after what they can get.
Open your eyes, man.

+1, its so easy to criticise from behind a keyboard
 
If the police are so bad, why don't you do it? I'm sure you'd shine. I don't doubt that you'd be far better than any of them at informing a family member that a loved one had died, at seizing the clothing of a still warm murder victim whilst preserving its forensic integrity as the poor soul's blood still ran from the trolley pooling at your feet, at interviewing a rapist or murderer, fighting for your life with some diseased drug crazed moron, presenting expert evidence in the Crown Court and performing fingertip searches for minute shreds of evidence in houses unfit to keep animals in. And all for less money than lots of supermarket managers and driving instructors earn. Yes, the police are only after what they can get.
Open your eyes, man.
well said extremely difficult job in any sector constantly held by constraints of budget cuts and overtime bans while cases continue to mount understaffed and underpaid .
Norma
 
If the police are so bad, why don't you do it? I'm sure you'd shine. I don't doubt that you'd be far better than any of them at informing a family member that a loved one had died, at seizing the clothing of a still warm murder victim whilst preserving its forensic integrity as the poor soul's blood still ran from the trolley pooling at your feet, at interviewing a rapist or murderer, fighting for your life with some diseased drug crazed moron, presenting expert evidence in the Crown Court and performing fingertip searches for minute shreds of evidence in houses unfit to keep animals in. And all for less money than lots of supermarket managers and driving instructors earn. Yes, the police are only after what they can get.
Open your eyes, man.

I am not suitable for the Police. My Great Uncle who was a Sgt with the City of London Police will be turning in his grave at the way the Police are now. My first girlfriends father was also a Sgt with Surrey Police and he was glad to get to retirment because of the way the Service was going. The family also has other friends still in the service who are just hanging in to get their pension and hate what the service has become.

So yes I did once consider it but happily once I went through the application came to my senses.
 
If the police are so bad, why don't you do it? I'm sure you'd shine. I don't doubt that you'd be far better than any of them at informing a family member that a loved one had died, at seizing the clothing of a still warm murder victim whilst preserving its forensic integrity as the poor soul's blood still ran from the trolley pooling at your feet, at interviewing a rapist or murderer, fighting for your life with some diseased drug crazed moron, presenting expert evidence in the Crown Court and performing fingertip searches for minute shreds of evidence in houses unfit to keep animals in. And all for less money than lots of supermarket managers and driving instructors earn. Yes, the police are only after what they can get.
Open your eyes, man.

Reminds me of the old retort when people moaned about us....

'Next time you're in trouble......call a hippie...'
 
I tend to fall into the category of - its a job - there are worse, there are better but what distinguishes a job done well from a job done poorly is organisation and ethics. Some people call this being 'on message' and 'mission oriented', the way the Americans reorganised and galvanised Japanese industry after the second world war.

Doing a job, any job, less well than it could be done - if you did your best, is a modern phenomenon. The police are not exempt. So lets talk about the licensing function - is it done as well as it could be - no. Staff training is v poor, its not a difficult job, its not a difficult job to get right. Does it need a fully qualified police person - no, a civilian does it. Does it have to be a police civilian no. SO WHY ARE MANY DOING IT BADLY.

Is the South Yorkshire approach right then, hide the truth and mismanage your force in the face of a public commission's legal decision. Is this what we can reasonably expect from a police force (overall) - are there other forces similarly run ? Are there good forces ? - there's a very reasonable argument there for a unified police service with regional senior officers with central control. There's no 'right' model but there is something broken in many forces and it needs a different view (IMHO).
Police are trained to do their jobs - it is harrowing - so was mining until recently. Construction kills more people than any other. 3000 people die on our roads each year.
Nobody has to agree with anybody but suggesting all the police forces do a great job and couldnt do better under a different reorganised model, flys in the face of fact and probability - so why berate someone who's opinion differs from your own? There are people in the police who do that, but also many that dont.

Lastly it is said that "it is better to do something - than do nothing" - I hated this phrase, as it justified all sorts of management meddling and change for change's sake. I now think that, with plenty of research and an intelligent approach to change, the phrase is true. That's my conclusion for changing things like police forces and shooting organisations, where experience and obvious failings can drive beneficial change.
Just my opinion but as valid as yours, so I suggest you take Conures comments a little less critically.
 
I tend to fall into the category of - its a job - there are worse, there are better but what distinguishes a job done well from a job done poorly is organisation and ethics. Some people call this being 'on message' and 'mission oriented', the way the Americans reorganised and galvanised Japanese industry after the second world war.

Doing a job, any job, less well than it could be done - if you did your best, is a modern phenomenon. The police are not exempt. So lets talk about the licensing function - is it done as well as it could be - no. Staff training is v poor, its not a difficult job, its not a difficult job to get right. Does it need a fully qualified police person - no, a civilian does it. Does it have to be a police civilian no. SO WHY ARE MANY DOING IT BADLY.

Is the South Yorkshire approach right then, hide the truth and mismanage your force in the face of a public commission's legal decision. Is this what we can reasonably expect from a police force (overall) - are there other forces similarly run ? Are there good forces ? - there's a very reasonable argument there for a unified police service with regional senior officers with central control. There's no 'right' model but there is something broken in many forces and it needs a different view (IMHO).
Police are trained to do their jobs - it is harrowing - so was mining until recently. Construction kills more people than any other. 3000 people die on our roads each year.
Nobody has to agree with anybody but suggesting all the police forces do a great job and couldnt do better under a different reorganised model, flys in the face of fact and probability - so why berate someone who's opinion differs from your own? There are people in the police who do that, but also many that dont.

Lastly it is said that "it is better to do something - than do nothing" - I hated this phrase, as it justified all sorts of management meddling and change for change's sake. I now think that, with plenty of research and an intelligent approach to change, the phrase is true. That's my conclusion for changing things like police forces and shooting organisations, where experience and obvious failings can drive beneficial change.
Just my opinion but as valid as yours, so I suggest you take Conures comments a little less critically.

What an outstanding post! Well said!
 
Absolute rubbish! If you are connected you will know the rules, if not, prove it.

The only way, particularly in rural areas is back 50 years to the Judge,jury and punishment meted out by a village copper!

I dont think its the 'Masons' either but then my dad was a Mason and his dad was a past provincial grand master - whatever that means since I am not a mason. Its worth looking at the facts from South Yorkshire, since there is a suggestion that the new man given the job of policing the infamous football match, without experience, was a Mason and the head of the Force was also a Mason, the previous chap who was in charge was not a Mason. Circumstantial I know but whilst the Masons may be a christian organisation (apparently) they are also focused on promoting 'brothers'.
Not so easy to readily dismiss such claims sadly.
 
Anyone see the full page article in the Sunday Times?
I genuinely feel sorry for the ordinary cop who is doing his best - it seems (as ever) that senior police officers have not been entirely truthful over this or plebgate or --- the list is long and troubling.
The head of this is the NPCC which needs to be disbanded and the force management and senior staff reorganised - too much 'vested interest', too authoritarian and too 'feudal'.
I don't see it happening but the police is an organ of state, in times of plenty and an 'agent provocateur' of intelligence when times are tight. Interesting to see the link to the latest Director of Public Prosecution.
Police pensions take 7% of salary (before tax) and provide 2/3 of last earned salary per annum on retirement which can be as early as 50. So they aren't treated too badly, given the 'working conditions'.
Not easy to ignore the case for substantially structural change, I just wonder if T May is up to the job since she saw the threat from ACPO and disbanded it but it emerged the following day as NPCC. There are 'societies' for inspectors and other ranks.
An incredible opportunity though to re-examine the links to MI5/MI6 in the face of an increased terrorist threat and improve coordination throughout the UK.
 
Anyone see the full page article in the Sunday Times?
I genuinely feel sorry for the ordinary cop who is doing his best - it seems (as ever) that senior police officers have not been entirely truthful over this or plebgate or --- the list is long and troubling.
The head of this is the NPCC which needs to be disbanded and the force management and senior staff reorganised - too much 'vested interest', too authoritarian and too 'feudal'.
I don't see it happening but the police is an organ of state, in times of plenty and an 'agent provocateur' of intelligence when times are tight. Interesting to see the link to the latest Director of Public Prosecution.
Police pensions take 7% of salary (before tax) and provide 2/3 of last earned salary per annum on retirement which can be as early as 50. So they aren't treated too badly, given the 'working conditions'.
Not easy to ignore the case for substantially structural change, I just wonder if T May is up to the job since she saw the threat from ACPO and disbanded it but it emerged the following day as NPCC. There are 'societies' for inspectors and other ranks.
An incredible opportunity though to re-examine the links to MI5/MI6 in the face of an increased terrorist threat and improve coordination throughout the UK.
I think you'll find that police pension contributions are over double the rate you claim. Still, why let the facts get in the way of your whinging?
 
I think you'll find that police pension contributions are over double the rate you claim. Still, why let the facts get in the way of your whinging?

In total, perhaps, but I was talking about the individuals contribution - the rest is paid by the employer. I paid 3 %. on mine and I was told 7% by an ACC but have it your way. I dont think its whingeing to point out what I believe is correct. You miss the main point but I expected that. Its obvious you find any criticism of the police to be whingeing, are you connected ?
 
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