Fc leases

Scotland has more deer than ever before because of the "deniers" in the sporting world that want all the deer they can get for recreational stalking.

Yes, contractors are by their very nature mercenary cullers. Yes they get out of bed on a cold wet morning to earn their bread, when many rec stalkers might say the freezer is full and go back to bed.

Yes they do cull at night and out of season - but the vast majority of culling is in daylight and in season. Most of the out of season culls are males and culling females between 1st April & 30th Sept is not permitted at all.

Have you any idea how much it cost to plant an area of forestry? or how much cash is haemorrhaged by beating up year after year, and still ending up with a poor crop. Beat up can easily run to £1000/ha where there is a high population - something like 8000 ha a year of new land is planted in Scotland every year plus a similar amount of restock/second crop, plants will be vulnerable for 5-10 years. Even at 5 years that 80000 ha of vulnerable crop every year.

Do you really think forestry companies (private and FC) are going to burn money on contractors just for the hell of it - wake up and smell the coffee.

I enjoy my recreational stalking as much as anyone else but I am not so blind as to see that a job sometimes simply has to be done

Well Said In particular like your comment abou the Deniers of the sporting world wanting all the deer for recreational stalking this is so true they are blinded by greed.

I'm actually starting a new business whereby I take out deer stalkers and we stalk and shoot gold Bullion as ive found its much cheaper and your pretty much gaurenteed to see one.
 
Scotland has more deer than ever before because of the "deniers" in the sporting world that want all the deer they can get for recreational stalking.

Yes, contractors are by their very nature mercenary cullers. Yes they get out of bed on a cold wet morning to earn their bread, when many rec stalkers might say the freezer is full and go back to bed.

Yes they do cull at night and out of season - but the vast majority of culling is in daylight and in season. Most of the out of season culls are males and culling females between 1st April & 30th Sept is not permitted at all.

Have you any idea how much it cost to plant an area of forestry? or how much cash is haemorrhaged by beating up year after year, and still ending up with a poor crop. Beat up can easily run to £1000/ha where there is a high population - something like 8000 ha a year of new land is planted in Scotland every year plus a similar amount of restock/second crop, plants will be vulnerable for 5-10 years. Even at 5 years that 80000 ha of vulnerable crop every year.

Do you really think forestry companies (private and FC) are going to burn money on contractors just for the hell of it - wake up and smell the coffee.

I enjoy my recreational stalking as much as anyone else but I am not so blind as to see that a job sometimes simply has to be done



Well said slider.

Plus with a contractor ur generally only in essence paying them for the 6ish months work that there culling.
Most won't really spend an awful lot of time on the ground throu summer months but hit it hard throu winter as they can legally and morally/ethically shoot any safe deer, does in season and bucks out of season.
Same with the lamp most won't get it out before Nov time and it will be put away in Spring

I totally agree there should be far more rangers or even forstery workers in general but that is never going to happen, the days of big labour forces are sadly long gone.
In my local area FC alone have probably lost 80-100 jobs over last 30 years. When i was a boy used to be a que of FC mini buses and wee meastro vans outside the paper shop where i done my round from
Was speaking to an old ganger near me who was telling me about the good old days when there used to be 30 men plus ties all working out of a wee satelite office that doesnae even exist now. Up till 80's FC owned all the local houses (10) just for there workers, plus more on oppisate side of valley.

6P depending where u are and deer species but lamping along with other methods can work very well. Esp with territorial deer like Roe lamping really has no adverse affects compared to day shooting. End of day any deer seen will be shot so wot difference does wether its daylight or not.
Can see the problems/issues with deer that move a lot thou, esp where open hill and forestry are close. But again just as many could be hammered sheltering from weather in daylight as at night.
The issue is the numbers culled not really the method
 
Well said slider.

Plus with a contractor ur generally only in essence paying them for the 6ish months work that there culling.
Most won't really spend an awful lot of time on the ground throu summer months but hit it hard throu winter as they can legally and morally/ethically shoot any safe deer, does in season and bucks out of season.
Same with the lamp most won't get it out before Nov time and it will be put away in Spring

I totally agree there should be far more rangers or even forstery workers in general but that is never going to happen, the days of big labour forces are sadly long gone.
In my local area FC alone have probably lost 80-100 jobs over last 30 years. When i was a boy used to be a que of FC mini buses and wee meastro vans outside the paper shop where i done my round from
Was speaking to an old ganger near me who was telling me about the good old days when there used to be 30 men plus ties all working out of a wee satelite office that doesnae even exist now. Up till 80's FC owned all the local houses (10) just for there workers, plus more on oppisate side of valley.

6P depending where u are and deer species but lamping along with other methods can work very well. Esp with territorial deer like Roe lamping really has no adverse affects compared to day shooting. End of day any deer seen will be shot so wot difference does wether its daylight or not.
Can see the problems/issues with deer that move a lot thou, esp where open hill and forestry are close. But again just as many could be hammered sheltering from weather in daylight as at night.
The issue is the numbers culled not really the method
I entirely agree with the above too. We have 100,000 trees to establish each year and will tolerate 20% deer damage. We do not achieve this despite Night and OOS authorisation. We still see deer on a daily basis. No sporting lets offered by us just in house deer cullers....healthy deer and healthy forest, isn't that what counts?
 
ok...

if everyone can just wind their necks in for on moment I'll let you know the score :doh:

At the moment due to changes with certain policy and procurement legislation there will be a move towards the evolution of the current and creation of more deer control permissions and contractor managed areas. Now for obvious reasons the FC must go through a fair and transparent process in all aspects of offering deer management permission for tender or contracts etc. These changes and planning for them need to be done cleanly and it makes sense that rather than keep dishing out deer management permissions, wait a little bit and bring everything inline with the new standards.

I can assure everyone that the FC will not offer out deer permission on the quiet to known parties, grounds will be fairly advertised and tendering invited when it is the right time. Please have patience, and a bit of faith!
 
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I entirely agree with the above too. We have 100,000 trees to establish each year and will tolerate 20% deer damage. We do not achieve this despite Night and OOS authorisation.

best get a thermal imager then for night work! Once found it's pretty easy to mark deer whether you shoot them being in range once lit up or leave them for day stalking.
 
Slider this is not really true now is it. Contractors are not cheaper! They cover a bigger area because they Lamp. Normally areas that do not need lamped. They get the job done because they shoot out of season (Brown its down stuff) This is not management and has shown that it dose not work Scotland has more deer than it has ever had why because the indiscriminate type of control dose not add up mathematically. But it dose keep the Venison industry running year in year out even if it is haemorrhaging cash like a slashed artery. Contractors don't work because they don't care trigger pulling mercenary's. As a fix to this problem we really need more FC Rangers the money is there they just need to aim it in the correct way.

I think the maths have been done and economically for the FC it's far more beneficial to have an increase in contractors and deer management permissions. This being overseen by fewer rangers but culling the same number of deer overall. In the end, it has always been expensive to pay rangers salaries and provide the equipment they need while maintain their resources etc.
 
I totally agree there should be far more rangers or even forstery workers in general but that is never going to happen, the days of big labour forces are sadly long gone.
In my local area FC alone have probably lost 80-100 jobs over last 30 years. When i was a boy used to be a que of FC mini buses and wee meastro vans outside the paper shop where i done my round from
Was speaking to an old ganger near me who was telling me about the good old days when there used to be 30 men plus ties all working out of a wee satelite office that doesnae even exist now. Up till 80's FC owned all the local houses (10) just for there workers, plus more on oppisate side of valley.

FC Scotland currently employs jus over 800 people but are currently going through an Organisational Development Programme due to ongoing austerity - assumption is there will be a 10-15% cut in workforce, resulting in a further focus on managing rather than doing.
 
The question and point still remains...... how are people taking on new fc leases when they aren't advertised? Or are the people who are saying they've just been 'offered' a piece of fc ground telling porkies??

It isn't a question or anything else to do with contract culling....... just leases.
 
Maybe they are just renewals and not totally new leases

Ranger22 is right. I have just been offered my lease (Deer management permission) back for another year. They are usually a 5 year contract with a 1 year annual review pending performance/impact. FCS are very open and transparent IMO and I can't thank them enough for the past 4 years.

I understand that the new DMP will be advertised shortly, so please be patient.

Thanks

DS
 
FC Scotland currently employs jus over 800 people but are currently going through an Organisational Development Programme due to ongoing austerity - assumption is there will be a 10-15% cut in workforce, resulting in a further focus on managing rather than doing.

Aye the FC are a sad state compared to wot they used to be, but then again so are the other forestry companies, most ran mini buses out of town every morning. Nw most only employ shirt and ties.

As an aside is the timber job in a good way at minute?
When u speak to harvesting contrators or owner drivers/small haulage companies all really moaning about poor prices and a few on verge of chucking towel in and a few quietish, but to be fair they're always moaning. Yet some big hualage companies have just got into timber in a big way and have now go decent fleets of timber wagons and 1 big harvesting company was sold to arab? investors so they're must be money somewhere?


The question and point still remains...... how are people taking on new fc leases when they aren't advertised? Or are the people who are saying they've just been 'offered' a piece of fc ground telling porkies??

It isn't a question or anything else to do with contract culling....... just leases.

That early post from someone was smack on about FC and stupid rules, hoops tp jump throu and meaningless pieces of paper, but that's the way they are, typical government body. Not happy unless shuffling paper and covering its a**e
But the FC employees will have even more stupid rules to deal with and all this accountability stuff, the FC cannot just hand out leases to mates and doubtful if they ever could as they have to some a paper trail and have to show it was advetised and went for market value (no other sporting agent, forestry management company has to do that). It would be a carear ender to hand out leases and the leases are for tiny ammounts of cash so not even any brown envelopes worth having or notrisking job/pension over

Yes in the old days leases would go to mates but chances are they knew the boys throu stalking and were the best qualified for the lease anyway, stalking is a small world so if ur involved and loca; chances are u would know each other.
Possibly things are changing more now with all these silly tickets and small rainforests worth of written H&S assessments etc and people traveling far further.
Plus 20-30 odd years ago stalking really was not that common, in my area most estates still done it on vermin days
 
:rofl:
You now have to register your Backhander with your local FC officer and make sure you have every bulls@8t certificate under the sun relating to deer also you need a degree in medicine incase you get a midge bite or a pine needle in your hand, a degree in biology incase you see a deer with a strange spot on the tip of its ear, incase this happens you need to be a certified and competant person with the Centre for disease control so you can judge if ebola has made the jump from humans to deer, you shall also require an eye sight test which will need to be better than a hawk so you can spot a red deer from 100 metres, also a trained and competent person who can drive a car youll need to prove this with a 7 day driving course run by the BDS you can also add 3 days for ATV training if required. if you own an atv for deer extraction you will need a BDS test to prove you can tow a trailer these courses are run once a year every five years and have a maximum of 3 per course. If your attending a BDS course to work on FC leases you will need to complete a degree in english literature to prove you competent in reading signs. You will also be require to attend the 5 day BDS course on abbreviations for deer stalking starting with the meaning of BDS and FC. If you have your firearms certificate which the police issued you knowing your fit to own a firearm, you will need to show the FC you know which end the bullet comes out off and not to point it at people this can be done via a 3 day course where you will have to sit around with other stalkers and tell them how many deer you shoot, once this is commplete you can apply for the licence to carry a firearm on FC ground, once this licence has been achieved you can apply for the licence to load a firearm on FC ground, once you have this licence you can then apply for discharging a firearm on FC ground Licence. Before these course can be taken you will need to register with SNH, FC, BDS, BASC, CA, and boy scouts as a fit and competant person( even thou the police thought you were fit enough for a firearm) to get this certificate you will need to have a medical where the minimum standard required is the resting heart rate of Usain Bolt once this fitness is achieved you can go for you FC approved walker which is required to prove you can walk on FC ground. Deer stallkers extracting deer on FC ground must prove they are fit and competent to lift deer via the BDS courses manual handling of deer this is a 2 day course per deer species red, roe and fallow can all be done in one 5 day course at a .03% discount. I think ive about summerised the whole procedure once you have you fc lease all these certificates will require refreshing every 6 months in order to keep your trained hunter status.
 
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