.243 and loads

pg2008

Well-Known Member
I have been doing some reading and seeing that some people use the Dippers.

Now i am confused.

I am reloading .243 with a 55Grain Nos BT Bullet and have been putting in 41grain of Varget as my starting load. Well 41 grains is 3 cc of power how can the 2.8 dipper be used as well surly this is far to inaccurate ?

Looking down the data chart it say use the 2.8 dipper for quite a lot of the charges even through the weight are different.

Can any one shed some light on this... Or is this the black art of loading ?

Pete
 
i wouldnt even go their mate, far to inaccurate
I have been doing some reading and seeing that some people use the Dippers.

Now i am confused.

I am reloading .243 with a 55Grain Nos BT Bullet and have been putting in 41grain of Varget as my starting load. Well 41 grains is 3 cc of power how can the 2.8 dipper be used as well surly this is far to inaccurate ?

Looking down the data chart it say use the 2.8 dipper for quite a lot of the charges even through the weight are different.

Can any one shed some light on this... Or is this the black art of loading ?

Pete
 
i wouldnt even go their mate, far to inaccurate

Ever done it? I'm guessing not!

Pete: This is a fine way to load if you choose it. It does take some practice (as does using a dispensing measure) but the results are quite good. I loaded H414 using dippers in my daughters 243 Winchester Model 70 and she shot sub MOA with it. I have a .222 that I load regularly with dippers: Half MOA. My new 8x57 loading IMR 4350 using dippers is giving MOA. I could go on and on... I often make custom dippers from cartridge cases sawed then filed to length with a wire handle epoxied or soldered into place. With practice you can become quite accurate in your scooping.

As to the volume of 2.8CC delivering different weights with different powders, well, a cubic foot of feathers weighs less than a cubic foot of sand. Powders have different densities, that's all. Nothing dark about it. ~Muir

PS: Darned near forgot! Shot my future son-in-law's HOWA 30-06 using cartridges loaded with a Lee Loader and dippers of IMR 4350 and 180 grain bullets last week. Three quarter inch groups at 100M.
 
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hey calm your self down !! am i getting this wrong ?? if i am i stand forgiven.. "dipper" i take it are the wee not so accurate measuring cups to aid in loading scales with powder???
Ever done it? I'm guessing not!

Pete: This is a fine way to load if you choose it. It does take some practice (as does using a dispensing measure) but the results are quite good. I loaded H414 using dippers in my daughters 243 Winchester Model 70 and she shot sub MOA with it. I have a .222 that I load regularly with dippers: Half MOA. My new 8x57 loading IMR 4350 using dippers is giving MOA. I could go on and on... I often make custom dippers from cartridge cases sawed then filed to length with a wire handle epoxied or soldered into place. With practice you can become quite accurate in your scooping.

As to the volume of 2.8CC delivering different weights with different powders, well, a cubic foot of feathers weighs less than a cubic foot of sand. Powders have different densities, that's all. Nothing dark about it. ~Muir

PS: Darned near forgot! Shot my future son-in-law's HOWA 30-06 using cartridges loaded with a Lee Loader and dippers of IMR 4350 and 180 grain bullets last week. Three quarter inch groups at 100M.
 
I'm not riled up. Relax.:) "Dippers" can be used to load scales but they are designed to throw a volumetric measure of powder into a case. Lee makes a large set along with a chart for volumes of various powders. The original intent was to have a dipper you can use to measure powder for your loads. Lee includes a dipper with most die sets, along with appropriate data as to what charge the dipper measures and what velocity you will get. Forgive me if I seemed short but I have seen so many people decry this method because it isn't "precise" when in reality, it is "precise enough" for most loads that aren't edging maximum.

I love dippers as they make powder dispensing fast and I encourage people to try them if they have the mind. I mentioned in my post that I shot my future son-in-law's HOWA 30-06 with rounds loaded with a Lee Classic Loader and charged with the accompanying dipper. I was loading and shooting five rounds at a time and I could load 5 cartridges in the time it took my companions to set up a row of bowling pins to shoot with their revolvers. With this set you tap the case into a die with a mallet, and tap it out again after sizing. I was making a completed round every 1.5 minutes! The "dipper" was the speed demon in that operation~ Muir
 
In regard to how accurate loads can be with dippers, I have been using dippers for a long time, but just instead of using a bench mounted charge thrower, I can say in support that with constant use, very consistent charges can be delivered, I know this because the dippers are tipped onto a digital scale, (a good one intended for reloaders), always within a tenth of a grain either way, just care with a view to scooping in the same manner each time so that "packing" the dipper does not occur.
 
I use the dipper/trickle method as for my 243 loads the dipper that came with my dies always gets me to within a grain or so of my load then i just trickle the rest in.
 
Thank you all for that information.. I think i can see that it is a process that i need to find my own level in... All info taken on board.

Cheers
 
was only jesting their muir, so thats what they call them i never new that i used tthem they give you a near as dam it start so your 95% their, then i used powder trickler to get it bang on...
I'm not riled up. Relax.:) "Dippers" can be used to load scales but they are designed to throw a volumetric measure of powder into a case. Lee makes a large set along with a chart for volumes of various powders. The original intent was to have a dipper you can use to measure powder for your loads. Lee includes a dipper with most die sets, along with appropriate data as to what charge the dipper measures and what velocity you will get. Forgive me if I seemed short but I have seen so many people decry this method because it isn't "precise" when in reality, it is "precise enough" for most loads that aren't edging maximum.

I love dippers as they make powder dispensing fast and I encourage people to try them if they have the mind. I mentioned in my post that I shot my future son-in-law's HOWA 30-06 with rounds loaded with a Lee Classic Loader and charged with the accompanying dipper. I was loading and shooting five rounds at a time and I could load 5 cartridges in the time it took my companions to set up a row of bowling pins to shoot with their revolvers. With this set you tap the case into a die with a mallet, and tap it out again after sizing. I was making a completed round every 1.5 minutes! The "dipper" was the speed demon in that operation~ Muir
 
In the thread dealing with a beginner asking about where he should begin in .308 reloading equipment and advice, Muir recommended the Lee reloading kit which can be used in the field - with a mallet. It's about 4" wide X 6" long and an inch deep.

The powder scoop/meaure included in the kit is the dipper being mentioned. You get practise in scooping up a clean and level measure and off you go. Job done.

It sounds odd - I know - but it DOES work, and very well too. I used these kits in two sizes and my old reloading mentor used one in .270, and they produced amazing results.

Calmac, I can see that your concern is safety and accuracy. That's to your credit. Pride in being right comes a long way behind getting anyone hurt.
However, in this case there's no need for any worry at all, and if the word of the older codgers is still a question, then think about Lee and the litigation it would involve if they were to be the cause of harm to any of the public ?

They just could not afford it.
 
hi ecoman thanks for that mate thats what i was thinking as i used to use rcbs scoops as i call them, and they yould always be a couple of grains under or over, just didnt like the idea of seeing new thread saying "IN LOVING MEMORY OF RG2008" he went up stairs to do a spot of re-loading on his new set up, then of to range and blew his head off, p.s great part of the country you stay iv family doted around the highlands and wester ross etc id love to sell up & move up your way thanks again
In the thread dealing with a beginner asking about where he should begin in .308 reloading equipment and advice, Muir recommended the Lee reloading kit which can be used in the field - with a mallet. It's about 4" wide X 6" long and an inch deep.

The powder scoop/meaure included in the kit is the dipper being mentioned. You get practise in scooping up a clean and level measure and off you go. Job done.

It sounds odd - I know - but it DOES work, and very well too. I used these kits in two sizes and my old reloading mentor used one in .270, and they produced amazing results.

Calmac, I can see that your concern is safety and accuracy. That's to your credit. Pride in being right comes a long way behind getting anyone hurt.
However, in this case there's no need for any worry at all, and if the word of the older codgers is still a question, then think about Lee and the litigation it would involve if they were to be the cause of harm to any of the public ?

They just could not afford it.
 
Hello Muir,
AS usual - there's so much going on in my single grey cell that I forgot something. (and I see that I'm still missing keys and creating spelling mistakes in my finger-jabbing typing).

Re your mention of making dippers - and for those who might be interested.
For the average size for .243 & .308 or 7X57mm (.275) Then others in .270 etc, 15mm copper tube, (Water pipe), is an excellent and ready-made container. The inwards burr created by the tube cutter makes a nice shelf to hold the tinning solder and the circle of copper dropped into the bottom is easily sweated into place with a bit of heat.

An empty biro pen makes a nice handle - glued on with today's epoxy glues it should not shift. The result will feel a little heavier than the plastic factory one, but it does, once you get used to it, create a bit more stability for trickling those few final grains of powder into the weighing scales pan.

Making a case powder funnel is great fun and produces a really dinky-looking piece of kit.

For the bit which sits OVER the case neck or mouth, saw off the first three quarters of an inch off a .270 or similar case.
for the bit which sits INSIDE the case neck or mouth, remove the base off a .22 LR case. This gets tinned and slid up inside the .270 bell to squeeze gently into the .270 neck by about a quarter inch - central. So you now have an inner and outer lip to the funnel-to-be.
The inside of the bell neck is tinned but the remainder is left 'dirty' so solder will not stick to it.

Then make a cone out of a piece of thin copper plate, remove the point of the cone and all burrs, then clean the narrow end and tin it and tin a thin lip on either side of the shaped cone where you want to make the edges meet and join.

Tease the plate into shape until it forms a cone which wants to spring , one edge against the other.

Now assemble the lot on top of a piece of steel plate and bring the plate up to heat on something like a camping gaz stove. (I have an old primus),
Let the solder melt and sweat into place - but not run - then turn off the heat and go do something else for a while whilst it cools.

Then get busy and de-grease and burnish the gizmo. It's non-stick, has no static problems and feels great to use - and looks really nice too.

I must work at drawing these things and imaging them from my camera for a site like this.
 
Hi calmac,
Hello muir and for others who know better than I and have done it, (It's darned difficult barging in as a new boy and airing ideas. Most of it is old hat and amost forgotten about so it doesn't get mentioned until someone pokes you with a sharp stick).

If anyone has dismantled enough factory rounds of any manufacture, and weighed bullet, powder and brass prior to re-assembling for velocity, accuracy and field testing, you will be interested to find that there can be quite a variation in powder weights; yet all the time, decent shots are check-zeroing and killing with them with no problems.

I read some comments by several fellows on one of the threads on this forum some time ago - and it scared the effluent out of me as I suddenly realised that I was swimming in shark-infested waters. These fellows do a lot of in-depth target shooting, and their argument was that it's not the precision of powder weight which matters, but the bullet seating depth.

Now THAT takes for a lot of patience and repetition until the precise depth is found, and it's well out of my league in singular concentration because I know several things.

The only rest I use in the field in the prone position is a rolled-up rifle slip or a convenient knoll. If I require to do so, I get up on my elbows or sit with my elbows locked between my knees in the sitting position and also use my walking stick as an extra prop on the forend.

On the range - because my sole reason for doing so is checking the rifle for the field, I'll use a better rest, but it's really to prove that the rifle can produce the goods within certain perameters and that it's really a better tool than I am. Every shot on the hill and in the woods is different. The reason for problems is most often not the rifle - but US - and the only way to get around that one is to keep ourselves as fit as possible so that when we reach the shooting point we are in good condition to hold and use that rifle.

I know the advantages of a bipod. I used them on on a Bren then the LMG and later the GPMG for years, and as a young 'squaddie' I peeled quite a few spuds as punishment for placing neat holes in the triangular shot pointers which the other lads used for pointing out the shots in the butts. They pointed out my last shot and I put one in beside it. I had good eyes in those days, and the black imp in me ran strong. No credit to me there !

But I hate carrying a bipod on a sporting rifle because I don't like the extra weight and know that 90% of my shooting will be adequately done without one. If it looks risky, then back off as there's always another day.
I have good and respected hill-stalker friends who use them. They are willing to carry them about and heft the extra weight, and that's their choice - good on them. They like the stability, the end-result convenience and the confidence it gives to their shooting.
They still hand their rifles to me on the range during the final check though, so bipod or no bipod, the difference in choice is respected, but of course, on the side of being paranoid, maybe they are trying to make 'uncle 'K' feel better !

I guess that I'm just getting a bit lazy. There was a day when I'd walk a mile to cast a fly on a puddle in the road, now I have rods a-plenty but there always seems to be tasks to do nearer the door.
 
A good tutorial! I have made funnels at need out of cardboard! I like your idea better!

I make quite a few Dippers but usually like to make them from old brass cartridge cases. I weigh the desired amount of powder and put it into a case that has a greater capacity than the one I'm reloading. I eyeball or mark where the powder lies, then pour out the powder and trim/file the case to the proper volume. A handle of wire or plastic can be fixed by whatever method is convenient. I like the idea of using 5CC syringe bodies for dippers and have made a few. Draw is that if you own a Lee Reloading book, you can calculate the volume of any powder using a chart they have and a bit of math. This simplifies estimating the correct charge volume and the marks on the syringe body allow you to guestimate the starting point for your first cut. The downside is that the plastic is a bit of a pain to saw and file. Otherwise, it works well.

I have found that with coarse, stick powders like 4831, 4350, and 4064 the dippers are every bit as accurate as a powder measure/thrower.~Muir
 
Back from the waves - wind veering with squalls. The boat can stand it but some visitors prefer to keep their innards in place !:stir:

A variable speed Dremel is a useful tool on such delicate jobs as those being mentioned - but I'm a bit of a nut on tools in any case.
A variable speed set at minimum helps to cut hard plastic shells without melting by overheating, but the hand needs to be dead steady or it can be a bit hard on cutting discs which readily break. Brass and copper which fill the pores are a big No-No to grinding wheels in any case, but you need to get the job done somehow - with control.
Setting the base of a cartridge case in the pillar drill after adjusting the neck down into a suitable diameter, greased mandril in the crossvise for vetical 'true', then switching on a medium speed and applying a dead sharp hacksaw blade gently from the side on a rest is good for accurate cuts. The brass can then be edge reamed with fine sandpaper and wirewool.

Brass and copper are excellent mediums to work-with, and produce everlasting implements which please the eye.:old:
 
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