getting my pup tmmorrow

russ91

Well-Known Member
hi guys im going to pick my new lab pup up tommorrow. im wanting to use the dog on the beating line and a bit of rough shooting and picking up can any one give me any poiners on getting stared with the training.
 
yep all ready figured that ha ha just going to start with a bit of obeisance first Min a day the the rest will just be play.
 
what type of pup are you getting??

sorry Russ
should of read "what line of pup are you getting"

Reason for the question is some lines are just not suited to the beating line, most will rough shoot okay depending on the ground you shoot
but labs are not beating line dogs so don't push that side of training to much
go more the Rough shooting and picking up route, as that will suit the lab more and give you more control when beating
get it steady following the whistle , hand and voice commands
you could Start with as a pup rolling and playing with tennis balls just infront of it, in the garden is ideal, little bit at the time as you don't want to over do it or risk over exerting the pup while it's bones are still growing
as time and weeks progress increase the distance you throw the ball ( you will soon work out how far but keep it simple)
basic sitting and stay from an early age but not straight away
walking on a lead from the start but not taking any control let the pup get used to walking with the lead on even if it is pulling
you can correct that later
introduce it to cover by rolling the tennis ball into a flower bed or a bit of long grass and let it play and explore
same as for water , roll the ball in a small puddle or similar
little things like this will make training a darn site easier by the time it is 6-8 months old when you start on a more adult schedule
and keep it fun as there is no need to rush , you hav 2 years + before the shooting season really starts
as it will be tail end of next season where you will probably do a little and introduce it to the beating and gun lines , along with pigeoning and a bit of hedgerow rabbiting over the summer months , then start into a full season by the time it is 2+
the one advantage of a lab, is you can take it lamping as they seem to enjoy that and working the beam for a retrieve
good luck for the future
 
sorry Russ
should of read "what line of pup are you getting"

Reason for the question is some lines are just not suited to the beating line, most will rough shoot okay depending on the ground you shoot
but labs are not beating line dogs so don't push that side of training to much

This is some generalisation to make. Are you suggesting that a particular blood line may point blank not be suited to a beating line? As opposed to perhaps suggesting that in any litter of any breed whether pure lines or cross, that some pups may be better pickers up, some may be better hunters, some may be good in the water, some may be better markers or any mix thereof?

As an example, I have 2 litter sisters in my kennels that I bred myself, both well built and strong dogs unlike some that are trialled nowadays. The yellow one was always a reasonable dog and very biddable. The black one, the bigger and more powerfully built of the 2 would go through any cover at ridiculous speed, had an action more akin to a spaniel and yet would sit with another 3 or 4 dogs when loading at double gun days and pick up only on the command of her name. Just like her mother was but the yellow one did not turn out quite the same. The yellow one, crap in water. The black one fantastic. The black one good at marking and would work well at any distance from me onto a shot bird. The yellow one clingy. The black one in the right hands may have made a very good trialling dog, the yellow one a good peg dog. 2 dogs, one litter, both trained by me and unique in their own right. I owned a springer once that could also be handled out to any similar distance I have done with a lab and mark as well. Not every one has been like this, but there are always exceptions.

I had no idea these 2 would turn out like this until the training progressed. I have owned a springer, currently a cocker, countless labs and a German Wirehaired pointer which has been used solely for deer. I accept that certain traits like pointing, some breeds will not be EXPECTED to do. But I have seen labs point and very good at it as well.

Best dog I ever owned for ducks at a flight pond was a springer bitch and yet are labs not thought to be the better retrievers as their name suggests? And perhaps better in water as well?

The point I am making is that any breed of dog imho can hunt in a beating line provided it is introduced to it correctly to avoid it running wild and beyond reprimand when faced with a load of birds at a flushing fence. As a jack-of-all-trades which singularly owned dogs are generally expected to be, I have often recommended labs to first time owners as they appear (but not always because that would be an incorrect sweeping statement) less of a daunting prospect than a fiery wee spaniel.

Lets not get working in a beating line confused with the very different approach required for a quartering dog like a spaniel, being worked alone over cover.
 
if your going to use the whistle, start from day 1, recall them for their dinner etc, ive got a 6 month old one and its great fun if not a little 'challenging' at times. Use food as a bribe.. being a black lab, they will do anything for food.

Dont let it jump down from things either and dont walk it too much.

Sorry about the crate faff too fella, im up in Scotland so cant really help you, sorry again to mess you around.
 
On a more constructive note, I don't like a lot of the training films made as I think some are obviously using already trained dogs, however a couple well worth a look at are the ones that Edward Martin from Langton Hill Farm, Nr Jeburgh (SEALPIN affix) produced. Very informative using complete novice dogs as can be seen by their mistakes.

A couple he made were on the puppy stage with retrievers and more advanced training as well. To confirm what i said on my previous post, I often used Edwards dogs as studs. When he made the films he needed some footage of young pups to show the viewers what he looks for in choosing a pup. The 2 on the film are the yellow and black litter sisters I referred to in my earlier post. After consideration from memory I'm sure he said he would have picked the yellow one given the early signs. Not quite how it would have been expected to turn out after reading above post but that depends on what you want the dog to be good at.
 
As a jack-of-all-trades which singularly owned dogs are generally expected to be, I have often recommended labs to first time owners as they appear (but not always because that would be an incorrect sweeping statement) less of a daunting prospect than a fiery wee spaniel.

Surely, if someone wants a "jack-of-all-trades" single dog, an HPR would be more suitable than a retriever?

We must not forget, hundreds (sometimes thousands) of years have been spent by dedicated breeders to produce so many "job specific" breeds of dog.
Retrievers have been selectively bred to do just that (despite the interference of the showing fraternity and the massive problem of hip displacia in the breed) and they excel at it.
Spaniels have been bred to excel at hunting.
Hounds have been bred to excel at tracking.
Only the HPR breeds (and there are many to choose from) have been selectively bred to be true all rounders!

While I agree "any" breed of dog can be trained to hold the beating line, I think most of them would not excel at it and, again in my view, a lot of them would be more of a novelty than any real use. Some dogs could also suffer in later life if not built/bred for the job, which I presume is the point Stone was hinting at.

may be the term "horses for courses" should apply?
 
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Surely, if someone wants a "jack-of-all-trades" single dog, an HPR would be more suitable than a retriever?

We must not forget, hundreds (sometimes thousands) of years have been spent by dedicated breeders to produce so many "job specific" breeds of dog.
Retrievers have been selectively bred to do just that (despite the interference of the showing fraternity and the massive problem of hip displacia in the breed) and they excel at it.
Spaniels have been bred to excel at hunting.
Hounds have been bred to excel at tracking.
Only the HPR breeds (and there are many to choose from) have been selectively bred to be true all rounders!

While I agree "any" breed of dog can be trained to hold the beating line, I think most of them would not excel at it and, again in my view, a lot of them would be more of a novelty than any real use. Some dogs could also suffer in later life if not built/bred for the job, which I presume is the point Stone was hinting at.

may be the term "horses for courses" should apply?

My comment was made following the initial posts reference to beating, rough shooting and picking up. In other words a bit of jack-of-all-trades.

Your observations re the ability of specific breeds to 'excel' in certain domains was kind of my point. Bred specifically to 'theoretically' excel but the eventual outcome may not always be as expected, as I have experienced first hand.

I think I was trying to suggest that often the breeds that are expected to do well in some areas often don't and vice versa. It was aimed more at the suggestion made by Stone that immediately from the offset some blood lines will not be able to perform a particular task, like work in a beating line. I took his point literally to allow for further discussion.

I agree with your comment about the HPR's although my experience with them amounts to only owning one, hence I'm in no position to advise on that breed! I feel I have missed out somewhat in only ever training her to deer and not progressing onto general shooting work as well. Having worked her now for almost 7 years, the next one will be used in less of a specific role.

Oh, you missed out HPR's ability to work in harmony with hawks. My labs used to hate travelling in the same car as them!:rolleyes:
 
My comment was made following the initial posts reference to beating, rough shooting and picking up. In other words a bit of jack-of-all-trades.

Thats what I was getting at ;)


Oh, you missed out HPR's ability to work in harmony with hawks. !:rolleyes:

I didn't list an HPR's ability to work with hawks because I have no experience in that field. I rough shoot, beat and pick up as well as stalk deer with all mine

I think Stones "presumed" suggestion that certain lines will not be suitable from the get-go is certainly true. I know of several lines (of several breeds) that would never make decent working dogs, both due to lack of drive and health issues :cry:
 
Yep, know some like that as well. And it makes me shudder when I hear some **** at a shoot asking the owner of said mutt if they can use it as a stud dog...
 
Hi jamross
sorry for not really replying sooner to your question as I was a little busy over the weekend
but reading it I had wondered if you had been on the whicky or something:D

This is some generalisation to make. Are you suggesting that a particular blood line may point blank not be suited to a beating line? As opposed to perhaps suggesting that in any litter of any breed whether pure lines or cross, that some pups may be better pickers up, some may be better hunters, some may be good in the water, some may be better markers or any mix thereof? .


I SAID lines not a paticular line:doh:
Might also help if you look more at hereditry problems and also at how past generations hav performed in the field when choosing any pup from any line of dogs
will save you a lot of money from giving it to vetinary and also dissappointment if the pup is not upto the job you want it to do
nothing to do with my dog is better than his bitch syndrome;)


As an example, I have 2 litter sisters in my kennels that I bred myself, both well built and strong dogs unlike some that are trialled nowadays. The yellow one was always a reasonable dog and very biddable. The black one, the bigger and more powerfully built of the 2 would go through any cover at ridiculous speed, had an action more akin to a spaniel and yet would sit with another 3 or 4 dogs when loading at double gun days and pick up only on the command of her name. Just like her mother was but the yellow one did not turn out quite the same. The yellow one, crap in water. The black one fantastic. The black one good at marking and would work well at any distance from me onto a shot bird. The yellow one clingy. The black one in the right hands may have made a very good trialling dog, the yellow one a good peg dog. 2 dogs, one litter, both trained by me and unique in their own right. I owned a springer once that could also be handled out to any similar distance I have done with a lab and mark as well. Not every one has been like this, but there are always exceptions.
I had no idea these 2 would turn out like this until the training progressed. I have owned a springer, currently a cocker, countless labs and a German Wirehaired pointer which has been used solely for deer. I accept that certain traits like pointing, some breeds will not be EXPECTED to do. But I have seen labs point and very good at it as well. .

I Myself hav been involved in training over 30 springers and cockers, a good few labs, spinone's, 1 culumber ( I know but I like a challenge) , HPR's, welsh springers,
was going to name all the breeds I had been involved with ,
but gave up as I see no relevance really:doh:
I also hav 3 labs and a springer at home and 13 working dogs in total between Myself and the OH at this present time
not that makes a blind bit of difference to Russ or his new pup:rolleyes:

But hav to agree on labs that point, infact I'm sure there are some very good US lines bred specifically as pointing labs and which if I'm not mistaken are originally bred from UK lines
maybe there is a link there;)

you also commented

Best dog I ever owned for ducks at a flight pond was a springer bitch and yet are labs not thought to be the better retrievers as their name suggests? And perhaps better in water as well?.

Again I hav to agree just like you, the best water dog I hav ever owned and trained was an ESS, hardly a dog out there that could touch him in his day, except the OH's Lab bitch , she was awesome
but I did not own that the OH did:)
She was the best water dog I hav ever seen especialy when it came to geese runners
now what was your point again
thats it
The point I am making is that any breed of dog imho can hunt in a beating line provided it is introduced to it correctly to avoid it running wild and beyond reprimand when faced with a load of birds at a flushing fence. As a jack-of-all-trades which singularly owned dogs are generally expected to be, I have often recommended labs to first time owners as they appear (but not always because that would be an incorrect sweeping statement) less of a daunting prospect than a fiery wee spaniel. .

You are right ANY dog can but for how many years of such constant abuse to their body will a poorly bred dog last compared to healthy one,
how many times hav you heard your mate say their lab or springer has been retired early due to health problems or does only limited days or only half days whislt your dog is still going strong ,doing a full day at the age of 10
If I had a £ every time I heard this and how lucky I was to hav such a good dog that was so healthy
I know I say , I was ever so lucky that I chose such a dog with such a good pedigree and blood line:doh:
But I hav to admit
This last statement really has confused me:oops:

Lets not get working in a beating line confused with the very different approach required for a quartering dog like a spaniel, being worked alone over cover. .
so I just had to ask:p
what criteria in a spaniel do you need for working it in the field wether it is in a beating line or field trial championship
surely you want your dog to walk to heel, sit , stay , hunt steady in all cover and possibly water by use of voice, whistle and hand commands, retrieve on command and also pick up dead game as they come across them , recall on command ,
be steady to shot and game and work with you, like you both are one as a team
or are beating line dogs a little something extra special:D

One thing our dogs will do is draw you into interesting debates of which there are no winners just opinions based on fact or fiction
that seems to be a common trait in all:lol:


By the way Russ
How is the new arrival are you getting any sleep or has it settled in already
look forward to seeing a few pics:cool:
ATB
 
Stone
Wanted to reply with quote but you have made me dizzy!

Firstly, I should be honest and state that the lab I referred to as being able to point was superb at it. But not much else. She was called Magic and I think that was based on 'now you see it,.....' But taking nothing away from her she really did point very well and rock solid.

I may have been lucky over the years as my labs have managed to work until a really good age. The 2 I referred to earlier turned 14 in July this year and were out picking up at the pheasants every day I was out last year, made easier with the young dogs out as well. Granted at their own pace and never once driven on, but try and keep them in the trailer or pick-up when the others are let out!. However, the black one, Berry, epitamises the phrase, 'young heart in an old body'. I fear now that neither will be here this time next year as they appear to have aged drastically since January. You could be right re how long will they last when worked hard but I have often found that its incredible how dogs learn to pace themselves when they become used to a particular kind of work. Granted, spaniels in the trialling world may struggle to last a day in the line given their bursts of speed and energy, I'm being careful to use the word 'may';).

On another note, I have also been very careful in the way my dogs are treated, especially when wet after duck shooting. Always dried properly with old towels, fed warm food and rested properly in good kennels.

Just to clarify, the comment I made re the different approach to the beating line or working a single dog quartering in cover, it was not made referring to their obedience or them running wild, it was made in relation to their ability to shine in that discipline. Does a dog in the line necessarily have to be as good as the latter? Just a thought.

I recall some dogs that the owners must have spent hours and hours in training them to cover the ground in front of 12 beaters, one end of the line to the other, to the end of the drive and back again. 3 times, before any of the other dogs have managed to cover 20 yards. Now that is a special dog....:coat:
 
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That last comment really brought a smile to my face
BIL has a cocker bitch like that,
just she does a complete circuit of the drive first, checking out where the guns are just incase
the picking up team hate her :lol::lol:
 
I recall some dogs that the owners must have spent hours and hours in training them to cover the ground in front of 12 beaters, one end of the line to the other, to the end of the drive and back again. 3 times, before any of the other dogs have managed to cover 20 yards. Now that is a special dog....:coat:
Doesn't sound very special to me. Sounds like a standard HPR :D

Rich,
No addition yet. Pups due in less than two weeks. As long as there is a suitable pup for my purposes, it should be with us early November.
I liked the "not that makes a blind bit of difference to Russ or his new pup" remark ;)
You know me, why have something steady and obedient, when I can have something with running shoes and no glasses. Oh no, thats me not the dog :D
Hope you are well, long time no see
 
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