German Scopes The Big Three, Your thoughts

beno

Well-Known Member
I am looking at replacing my 8x56 S&B on my 243 I am looking at

S&B Zenith 3–12 x 50 Flash Dot. Like the scope but it’s only a 50 objective lens which kind of puts my off as I want the same twilight range as my current scope.

Ziess Victory Varipoint 3-12 x 56. Never had any experience with Ziess scopes but herd reports about them being better at light gathering the S&B?

Swarovski Z6i 2.5-15x56 BT 4Ai. The thing putting me off about this scope is the warranty they only give you 2 years on the ir and 10 for the rest of it in my opinion that not very good when you’re paying nearly 2k for a scope you want a life time warranty, also the parlex puts me off as I've never used a scope with it before so don’t know if it would help me or would be another **** you don’t really need? The BT seams a great idea.

The main use for the scope would be foxing and deer stalking with more to the foxing side of things, that’s why I want that bit more mag than I've got.
Anyone that owns any of the above scope it would be great to hear your reports on how they perform.

Thanks

Ben
 
Why not buy the z6i 2-12x50 no paralax to worry about.It is available with or without the bt.Personaly i would buy the swarovski they are superb scope as far as i am aware all swarovski scopes come with a 30 year warranty and theres is known to be probaly the best.
ATB SEAN
 
I would look at the zeiss 3x12x56 ir diavari . swapped to this from Swaro 8x56 and never would look at another scope. Takes deer and fox no probs great light gathering.

ATB Steve
 
The best scopes in the world? I don't know of any tests that catagorically and scientifically prove which has the best light gathering capability. All I can say is when ordering the best for the British Snipers, US Marines, Seal Teams and those awfully nice people from Hereford they all choose Schmidt & Bender.

I have two good friends who have bought Swarovski's that are variable power, one has a x50 and the other a x56. They both leave them set on 8x! I wish I had bought a 8x56 rather than the 7x50 that I did, I rather like the illuminated reticle one.

ft
 
Dont let numbers in the twighlight range put you off. they are just theoretical numbers that are a multiple of objective lense size x ocular lense size.
a 50mm objective from any of the companies you mentioned will be plenty enough.
S&B have the lowest failure / warranty return in the market. did you know that they are bringing out a 3-20x50 Zenith ?

Ive used a 3-12x50 in some of the darkest depths of the darkest forests in Germany, and its worked a treat. no need for a 56mm in my opinion.

I must admit I have a soft spot for S&B. having use thier scopes for well over 15 years now with no failures. Ive also done some consultant work for S&B and Leica and have fairly good inside knowledge of thier products, whilst i wouldn't consider a leica scope, they do make them, they just aren't on the same playing field as the others just yet.

As long as you buy one of the EU quality scopes you wont go realy far wrong., guess that puts us back to your original question,
so its personaly preference x price and availability I would say.

regards Pete
 
3-12x50 zenith is possibly one of the finest scopes made. Go for the flash dot 7 which has a fine recticle good for long range shots
and with the dot switched on high it doubles as a short range scope good for even driven game.
I had the little bdc precision hunter turrets fitted which are great.
In comparison with other good scopes the zenith is brilliant when shooting against sun light, very little stray light.

My gripes: ( not so relevant when using as a stalking scope except weight)
-I would prefer a paralax knob
-scope is a bit too heavy
-bdc turrets only have one turn and are finished at around 500m / 308.

my other scope cost less than half as much
-has paralax knob
-has bdc turrets with more turns, for them longer rabbits.
-is lighter
-has almost as good glass
Zeiss conquest 6.5-20x50 (possibly best performance for money scope)
Put this on my main deer hunting rifle for now. I bet if Zeiss would sell
the conquest range in Europe it would hurt other manufacturers.

Pete....tell S&B that if they get me the 3-20x50 to test I'll delete the second part of my post:p

edi
 
did you know that they are bringing out a 3-20x50 Zenith ?

Very interested in this do you know when this is happing?
 
The best scopes in the world? I don't know of any tests that catagorically and scientifically prove which has the best light gathering capability. All I can say is when ordering the best for the British Snipers, US Marines, Seal Teams and those awfully nice people from Hereford they all choose Schmidt & Bender.



ft

Here`s an interesting little foray into testing and some results that may surprise!

Note this quote "Remember, this is a lab test, not some testers subjective opinion. "


Swedish magazine Vapentidningen no 6/2004 has printed a consumer lab test for riflescopes suitable for hunting at dusk/dawn.
Their conclusion is that the German/Austrian scopes are by far the best, but the leap from the cheaper US scopes are smaller today than it was at the last test 7 years ago.
Aerotech Telub lab did the scientific testing using spektrofotometers, broad spectral lamps and kolliminators.

The scopes were tested for field of sight, eye relief, "tube effect", ergonomy, click adjustment accuracy, impact change with change of magnification, sharpness and contrast, light transmission, reflexes, twilight performance.
Here's a bit more on the test. unfortunately the scope selection was somewhat limited. And please not that the test was geared towards scopes for post hunting in dark autumn evenings.
The test and description of the test criterias runs over 10 typed pages, so there’s a bit too much work to translate all of that and post them on this forum However, I will post the scoring scales.


Field of view at 100m
0-5m 0 points
5-6m 1 point
6-7m 2 points
7m+ 3 points

Eye relief
0-6cm 0 points
6-8cm 1 point
8-10 2 points
10+ 3 points

Tube effect
Sight picture severly disturbed by tube effect at all magnifications: 0 points
Sight picture severly disturbed at lowest magnification, disturbed at highest: 1 point
Sight picture distusturbed at all magnifications: 2 points
Sight picture disturbed only at lowest magnification: 3 points
Sight picture not disturbed: 4 points

Ergonomy
Magnification ring turns smooth and even: 1 point
Possible to read magnification marking in the dark: 1 point
Quick and smooth focusing: 1 point
Possible to click scope without tools: 1 point
Click adjustment easy to feel: 1 point
Good markings on all adjustments: 1 point
Indication of scope center: 1 point

Sight adjustment
Click adjustment deviation in percent
100-50% 0 points
50-20% 1 point
20-5% 2 points
5-1% 3 points
0% 4 points

Adjustment range at 100m
0-50cm 0 points
50-100cm 1 point
100-200cm 2 points
200-300cm 3 points
300cm+ 4 points

Change of impact with magnification at 100m
5cm+ 0 points
5-1cm 1 point
1cm- 2points
Nil 3points

Resolution and contrast
Field testing, can/cannot see various targets, details and colours under equal conditions and settings
Resolution 0-10 points
Contrast 0-10 points

Anti reflex
Under equal conditions and settings with light source facing the objective

Lenses
Not able to see through scope: 0 points
Sight picture is white, difficult to aim: 1 point
Sight picture is white, but aiming possible: 2 points
Sight picture a little white: 3 points
Sight picture good, but without contrast or colour: 4 points
Sight picture not affected: 5 points

Reticule
Not able to use the reticule: 0 points
Severe shadows and reflexes on it: 1 point
Shadows and reflexes on it: 2 points
A little shiny: 3 points
Sharp but mis-coloured: 4 points
Sharp and black: 5 points

Light transmission at 500-550 nm (twilight light)
Please note that scopes can transmit other wavelengt light better

0-10% 0 points
10-30% 1 point
30-40% 2 points
40-50% 3 points
50-60% 4 points
60-70% 5 points
70-80% 6 points
80-85% 7 points
85-90% 8 points
90-95% 9 points
95-100% 10 points

Twilight performance
Light were progressively reduced and scopes where excluded when it was no longer possible to determine target/crosshairs. Lighted reticules were not used. Scopes where used at all magnifications. Scopes where scored 0 to 10 points according to how little light it was possible to use it in.

Scopes tested:
BSA big cat 3,5-10x42
Burris fullfield II 3,5-10x50
Bushnell elite 4200 2,5-10x40
Docter 3-12x56
Kahles cb 3-12x56
Leupold XIII 3.5-10x50
Meopta artemis 2000 3-12x50
Meopta artemis 3000 3-12x56
Micro Dot 2.5-10x56
Nickel gerhardt 3-12x56
Nightforce np1 3.5-15x56
OXO ontario 3-9x56
Pecar 4-10x56
S&B Zenith 2.5-10x56
S&B 2.5-10x56
Shirstone Gold 4-12x58
Shirstone Gold 3-10x56
Swarovski Habict 2.5-10x56
Tasco Titan 3-12x52
Trijicon accupoint 2.5-10x56
Zeiss diavari z 3-12x56
Zeiss varipoint v 3-12x56
Zeiss diavari v 3-12x56
A short summary of the results below.

Scope name
B resolution (max 10)
C colour & contrast (max 10)
D anti-reflex (max 5+5)
E light transmission (max 10)
F twilight performance (max 10)
G overall test result (including all test results, not just the ones I've printed. Max possible 7Cool

Remember, this is a lab test, not some testers subjective opinion.

BSA Big cat 3,5-10x: B3 C3 D5 E6 F3 G44
BURRIS FULLFIELD II 3,5-10X: B10 C7 D6 E9 F7 G58
DOCTER 3-12X: B7 C8 D8 E8 F7 G60
KAHLES CB 3-12: B6 C8 D8 E9 F8 G62
LEUPOLD VXIII 3,5-10X:B7 C7 D8 E8 F6 G60
MEOPTA ARTEMIS 3000 3-12X: B7 C7 D7 E7 F7 G57
MEOPTA ARTEMIS 2000 3-12X: B6 C7 D7 E7 F6 G55
MICRO DOT 2,3-10X: B7 C6 D7 E8 F7 G58
NICKEL GERHARDT 3-12X: B9 C8 D8 E9 F9 G66
NIGHTFORCE NP1 3,5-15X: B9 C6 D9 E8 F7 G60
OXO ONTARIO 3-9X: B3 C3 D4 E6 F2 G39
PECAR 4-10X: B5 C6 D6 E8 F5 G46
SCHMIDT UND BENDER ZENITH 2,5-10X: B7 C8 D9 E9 F9 G65
SCHMIDT UND BENDER 2,5-10X: B9 C8 D8 E9 F9 G66
SHIRSTONE GOLD 4-12X: B5 C5 D5 E7 F5 G47
SWAROVSKI HABICT 3-12X: B9 C9 D8 E9 F10 G68
TASCO TITAN 3-12X: B5 C6 D6 E7 F4 G49
TRIJICON ACCUPOINT 2,5-10X: B8 C6 D8 E9 F8 G64
ZEISS DIAVARI Z T 3-12X: B10 C10 D10 E9 F10 G72
ZEISS VARIPOINT V 3-12X: B9 C10 D10 E9 F9 G70
ZEISS DIAVARI V 3-12X: B10 C10 D10 E9 F10 G73
 
3-20x50 Zenith will probably be end of the year,
Ive got a load or 3-20x50PMII's on order which are overdue.. but thats nowt new with optics, there are often delays when new scope, bino's or spotting scopes are to be marketed.

Edi you cheapskate, the conquests are a good basic scope, but they aren't in the big league. try hunting boar at 02.00hrs with it.

to be honest, who needs a paralax or a BDC with more than 500m on a hunting scope. ? very few.. yeah sure I use PMII's and have been known to take the odd game animal past 600m which sure as hell makes paralax and a BDC-Windage very handy indeed. but for 98.9% of deer that are taken under or even well under 300m, its a want it factor rather than a realy need it factor.
I'll phone Christian up and see if they want something field testing. I did have a look at the 3-20x50PMII at the Eurosatory in Paris. and was very impressed with it. I haven't seen the zenith version yet, but have seen the paperwork for it.
rgds Pete
 
German scopes, the big two...

...and an Austrian manufacturer.

That was my immediate thought.

Having said that, the scopes currently on my rifles are S&B x 4 Zeiss x 1, Swarovski x 1 and Kahles x1.

They all seem to work just fine. Even the Austrian ones.
 
I've got the 2.5-10x56 and the 3-12x50 zeniths and if they had asses the the sun would shine out of them,extremely robust and the flash dot is the bees knees for woodland stalking,i don't find there is a lot to choose between the two but prefer the lower mounting of the 50mm if i had to buy again i'd go for another 50mm,if you get one the FD7 reticule is the the best IMO.
ATB Neil.
 
3-20x50 Zenith will probably be end of the year,
Ive got a load or 3-20x50PMII's on order which are overdue.. but thats nowt new with optics, there are often delays when new scope, bino's or spotting scopes are to be marketed.

Edi you cheapskate, the conquests are a good basic scope, but they aren't in the big league. try hunting boar at 02.00hrs with it.

to be honest, who needs a paralax or a BDC with more than 500m on a hunting scope. ? very few.. yeah sure I use PMII's and have been known to take the odd game animal past 600m which sure as hell makes paralax and a BDC-Windage very handy indeed. but for 98.9% of deer that are taken under or even well under 300m, its a want it factor rather than a realy need it factor.
I'll phone Christian up and see if they want something field testing. I did have a look at the 3-20x50PMII at the Eurosatory in Paris. and was very impressed with it. I haven't seen the zenith version yet, but have seen the paperwork for it.
rgds Pete

Yes Pete game animals over 500m is a not on, but our game season finishes end feb and starts september. After feb vermin shooting starts and that sometimes over 500m. That's when the zenith goes in the corner. I even find under the lamp the flash dot is sometimes too bright or too dull. Mostly don't have time to change the setting when the fox is marching away.
I know one scope can't do it all and although the zenith is very close it could improve.

Another aspect, a scope being a mobile object then weight is a factor. More weight = less mobile. Americans are ahead of us in that and will tend to buy lighter scopes for hunting. As a result Kahles and Swaro came up with their lighter american line scopes. For example the 4-12x50 swarovski weighing under 400grams and I bet no one is gonna claim that light won't get through it. It doesn't have illumination though.
Even S&B tried to make a lighter scope, the Summit, but that's only a 42 if I remember right.
Two years ago I shot a doe and a calf at exactly 200yds in the last light, conquest at lowest mag. My friend next to me could not even find the deer through his 3-12x50 S&B classic. Would have been his turn to shoot. I'm sure it wasn't the scopes fault but just show's don't knock the cheaper conquest.

As for being robust and reliable, I'm also convinced S&B wins.

edi
 
This is of the Swarovski website see below


When you buy this optical product from SWAROVSKI OPTIK,
you will own a top-quality instrument for which we grant a worldwide
warranty of 10 years for the rifl e scope and of 2 years for the
reticle illumination from date of purchase in accordance with the
following conditions.


Think I am just going to go to the local gun shop and try them all out and see what I like

Thanks
 
8 x 56 Zeiss straight scope with no fancy bits - does exactly what you want, excellent for all long or short stalking, fox control and anything else, you get a excellent scope for just over 620.00 perfick

Fantastic clarity and light gathering optic, nice and plain and simple to use decent bit of kit.
 
I have had and used swaro's (brill)
But now have x2 Zeiss varipoints 3-12x56's
A Schmidt + Bender 3-12 x 50 Classic.
A Kahles 2.2-9 X42
They are all top draw and would use any at last light simple worth every penny.
My advice is buy whichever you can find with the best "deal".
If you are going to buy a Z6 you must get the Z6i as the crosshairs are very thin at dusk.
 
I have had and used swaro's (brill)
But now have x2 Zeiss varipoints 3-12x56's
A Schmidt + Bender 3-12 x 50 Classic.
A Kahles 2.2-9 X42
They are all top draw and would use any at last light simple worth every penny.
My advice is buy whichever you can find with the best "deal".
If you are going to buy a Z6 you must get the Z6i as the crosshairs are very thin at dusk.


If you had to pick one which would it be? With my 8x56 S&B I had to fit a cheek pad as it was to far up for me, do you have this problem with your Zeiss?
 
Beno, my suggestion based on many years of roughing it on all sorts of terrain in all seasons and weathers - get yourself a fixed power scope, I prefer 6X, (but your choice mate), in any of the three scopes mentioned - (although twenty years ago I witnessed three brand new Zeiss fail in succession). I have Swarovski right now.

Screw it down well onto perfectly fitted bases or machined dovetails - then after adjusting it to your requirements - forget about it other than keeping it clean and the fixings free of lubrication.

Night and hill equipment should ideally be considered as an unthinking extension of your body so that nothing interferes with the operation of stalking and humane killing. Animal killing is not in the same category as sighting for long range shots at human targets so I don't see the need for turrets and variables. (We also have the luxury in that animals don't shoot back).

All stalking equipment - right from boot laces staying properly tied, through to pants and what gets between you and the ground in your pockets should be investigated and eliminated and this should especially apply to the tools of the trade.
The only irritations should be those of nature - biting flies, heartbeat and sweat in your eyes.

So, in the final analysis, a 'scope can be either an expensive addition to distract you and be fiddled about with, or simply a reliable part of a reliable working tool.

I respect the opinions of others and their preferences, everyone to their own, but anyone fiddling about with rifles and 'scopes on the hill after me stalking for them to hinds in order to get the required cull number off during a short winter's day, between 9.30am. and three in the afternoon when there's sometimes hardly enough light to read newsprint at mid-day, only got invited the once.
 
I respect the opinions of others and their preferences, everyone to their own, but anyone fiddling about with rifles and 'scopes on the hill after me stalking for them to hinds in order to get the required cull number off during a short winter's day, between 9.30am. and three in the afternoon when there's sometimes hardly enough light to read newsprint at mid-day, only got invited the once.[/QUOTE]

:tiphat: :thumb: I wont fiddle!!!!!! Can i have a invite please,??? :hind:
 
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