So can I shoot deer with a 7mm or not?!

xavierdoc

Well-Known Member
I recently received my FAC back after renewal. I'd taken the opportunity to add some 7mm calibres to my permissions, for deer and target shooting. I already had empty 6.5x55 and .270Win slots, filled .243 and .308 slots.

The new certificate retains the 6.5x55 and .270Win slots along with new permissions to buy "7mm" and "7mm-08" rifles (and ammunition, including expanding.)

All good, I thought.

However, I just noticed that the conditions listed on the front of the cert, mention the .243, .308, 6.5x55 and .270Win as usuable for fox and deer, but no mention is made of the 7mm calibres.

Does this mean the new 7mm, calibres aren't cleared for deer/fox, even though "Authorised to acquire expanding ammo" includes 7mm on the next page?

The final condition (10) suggests I can buy expanding ammo for deer/vermin etc. but doesn't mention calibre.

Do you think an RFD will refuse to sell me expanding 7mm ammo?
Do you think I am OK to stalk with 7mm calibres as I do with my other rifles?

Here are pics of the relevant sections (I've blanked out serial numbers, call me paranoid!):

FACconditions.jpg


FACpage2.jpg


Thanks for any advice.

Xav
 
I recently received my FAC back after renewal. I'd taken the opportunity to add some 7mm calibres to my permissions, for deer and target shooting. I already had empty 6.5x55 and .270Win slots, filled .243 and .308 slots.

The new certificate retains the 6.5x55 and .270Win slots along with new permissions to buy "7mm" and "7mm-08" rifles (and ammunition, including expanding.)

All good, I thought.

However, I just noticed that the conditions listed on the front of the cert, mention the .243, .308, 6.5x55 and .270Win as usuable for fox and deer, but no mention is made of the 7mm calibres.

Does this mean the new 7mm, calibres aren't cleared for deer/fox, even though "Authorised to acquire expanding ammo" includes 7mm on the next page?

The final condition (10) suggests I can buy expanding ammo for deer/vermin etc. but doesn't mention calibre.

Do you think an RFD will refuse to sell me expanding 7mm ammo?
Do you think I am OK to stalk with 7mm calibres as I do with my other rifles?

Here are pics of the relevant sections (I've blanked out serial numbers, call me paranoid!):

FACconditions.jpg


FACpage2.jpg


Thanks for any advice.

Xav

That's be a "7mm Boo Boo" then, I guess :D
 
Very similar conditioning to some of Cheshire's printing work. I would have to send it back if it were mine, too much room for bad things to come your way.
 
Hmmm as I read it you do not have permission for 7mm expanding. They say the expanding part comes from the usage conditions here in Lincs yet put EXP besides some ammunition :rolleyes:. Now as neither of your 7mm rifles are listed for quarry you have no authority for expanding ammunition or bullets in 7mm. So yes they missed them off.
 
Apparently every addition to a FAC is subject to a condition
How true is that I hav no idea and can't find material proof relating to that as yet
till then my thoughts on the matter are this

The problem with this country, Is we are to dependant on being subject to conditions of use and when set free we just want to be chained up again:confused:
When you get a break in life, I find it always a good Idea to take it

If you read what it says at the start of it all in conditions
"This certificate is issued subject to the following conditions. It is an offence to fail to comply with any of the conditions below"
you are not subject to any conditions on your FAC for your 7mm
it says so or doesn't in your case,
as you hav not had any conditions put on it but still can buy one and ammo relating to it which are also not subject to any conditions
BONUS
It onlys mentions in " Additional conditions may be added here by the chief officer of police " certain rifles and shotgun hav been added and given a specified condition of use


To me it reads the 7mm's are open for use on any ground you hav permission to shoot on with that particular calibre and can use it for any lawfull species of bird and animal which the landowner has given you permission to take
I had the same with one of my rifles
they gave me permission to aquire and also ammo relating to that firearms but NO conditions
I spoke to BASC about it and they told me I really ought to get a bit more clarity
I did
BIG mistake, they slapped a shed load of conditions on it and also put on about certain bullets weights I could not use
They even tried to force me to use factory loads , as they did not count home loading as meeting satisfactory requirements regarding the law and guide lines as your own loads are not tested upto industry standards , what ever that means
~If you feel your FEO has made a mistake , then phone him up and ask him
then see what conditions are then slapped on it
your call,
but atleast you will know
if it keeps you happy and gives you piece of mind
then the call will be worth it
Please keep us informed I would like to know the outcome
ATB
 
Rich, I think most of us are careful in our moves as regards conditions on, or in this case NOT on ticket, as if in future we get pulled up on something......... they would inevitably trot out the "ignorance is no defence " mantra, I see where you are at in relation to this, I suppose it's just a difference in outlook really, I fully expect something similar on return of my certificate, as it is "AGAIN", in to have stuff rectified. Steve.
 
Xav, you clearly have permission for both holding and purchasing expanding ammunition for your 7mm as it is clearly written on your FAC. But the issuing force have not put any conditions on your use of the 7mm.

I would suggest any competant lawyer would be able to argue that they intend you to use the 7mm for live quarry, hence the expanding ammunition written on your ticket.

ft
 
Flyt, any lawyer who might work for the other side of the argument, might hold the view that you cannot comply with a condition that is not there?
 
Looks like the usual simple clerical error from the firearms department.

You have added to your previous .243, .270, 6.5 & .308 with the 7mm calibres and they haven't reflected it in the fox/deer condition. Real world thinking might suggest that you just get the FAC amended to reflect the additional calibres - chances are they'll realise their mistake at some point and it might not be the best timing for you when they do so, therefore it might be better to get it cleared away when it's convenient for you. From the existing conditions on your ticket I can't see you getting lumbered with anything more onerous than what you already have.

Don't get too excited about the 'Expanding ammo/missiles' condition - it's only there to cover us for possession as an afterthought following changes to the Firearms Act when they turned all expanding ammo into S.5 prohibited post-Dunblaine but forgot that it wasn't just limited to pistol ammo.:rolleyes: In itself it does not provide authority to use on certain quarry species - only the condition for the firearm does that. The current wording shouldn't create any problem for you when purchasing ammo.
 
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If you read what it says at the start of it all in conditions
"This certificate is issued subject to the following conditions. It is an offence to fail to comply with any of the conditions below"
you are not subject to any conditions on your FAC for your 7mm
it says so or doesn't in your case,
as you hav not had any conditions put on it but still can buy one and ammo relating to it which are also not subject to any conditions
BONUS
It onlys mentions in " Additional conditions may be added here by the chief officer of police " certain rifles and shotgun hav been added and given a specified condition of use


To me it reads the 7mm's are open for use on any ground you hav permission to shoot on with that particular calibre and can use it for any lawfull species of bird and animal which the landowner has given you permission to take
I had the same with one of my rifles
ATB

Flyt, any lawyer who might work for the other side of the argument, might hold the view that you cannot comply with a condition that is not there?

Finn, I think Stone has the point.

ft
 
I think the FEO will probably imagine that the 7mm rifles are permitted to be used only under condition 5. I suspect they haven't included them in the other condition probably because they forgot; or perhaps they felt that without serial numbers to write in, the magic wouldn't 'take'.

As it stands, and as the FEO will think you are not permitted to do anything other than target shooting with the 7mm's, I suspect that the FEO would also argue that the permission to purchase, hold and use expanding or depleted uranium missiles would not apply either.

I suggest that it be sent back for resensiblisation. You might like to suggest that 'Target shooting, zeroing and any lawful quarry' for everything would helpfully reduce everyone's workload in these wicked times.
 
My question would be why have they listed the serial numbers of your rifles in the conditions page :confused:
Mine just state that "calibre" can be used for xy or z

Neil. :)
 
Perhaps they think you already have enough rifles conditioned against deer?

Does not compute!! :D

Actually, you have a point: I am thinking of setting the .308 up more for target use (it won Silver in the Phoenix McQueen a few years ago at Bisley, in deerstalking guise) and the .243 for roe (and occasional fox). The 7mm option for larger deer and maybe target (instead of .308) if I can one shooting right.

When the firearms chaps visited (first time in 10yrs!) I explained my reasoning for wanting the extra calibre and they were perfectly happy.

The answers to my original question seem to polarise into:

1. They haven't "restricted" the 7mm calibre with any conditions, so use it for deer.

or...

2. The restriction is implicit as the 7mm calibre is not explicitly mentioned with the other calibres in the condition for use on deer or fox.

I guess it depends on your attitude. I am leaning toward the wimpy option of getting it clarified as I've never had a problem with Derbyshire firearms licencing (famous last words.) Then again, that means delaying the purchase of the rifle I've found and risking an over zealous restriction being slapped on 7mm calibres.

Hmm. It's not always easy being a law-abiding citizen! :eek:

Thanks for the advice and input.
 
I am leaning toward the wimpy option of getting it clarified as I've never had a problem with Derbyshire firearms licencing (famous last words.) Then again, that means delaying the purchase of the rifle I've found and risking an over zealous restriction being slapped on 7mm calibres.

Maybe a quick 'phone call explaining their error and asking that they deal with it poste haste, (possibly even with the suggestion that they might want to throw in the 'any other lawful quarry' as Dalua suggested ;)), and they could have a new replacement FAC ready for you to collect as you deliver the old one back to them?
 
Maybe a quick 'phone call explaining their error and asking that they deal with it poste haste, (possibly even with the suggestion that they might want to throw in the 'any other lawful quarry' as Dalua suggested ;)), and they could have a new replacement FAC ready for you to collect as you deliver the old one back to them?
Orion has it on the nose. Of course you can shoot deer with your 7mm, thats why you asked the feo for it, they have just forgotten to properly amend the certificate. A phone call to the most sensible one explaining this with a " so do I just carry on and shoot deer with it then?" type question thrown in should have the matter resolved in no time.
 
+1 to Brithunter's post - personally I'd go back to them to get it clarified/sorted out. Maybe you could argue it in court, maybe not. Do you want to have to???

Andrew
 
Which 7mm do you fancy, after the 7-08rem that is?

I mean everyone seems caught up on you not have conditions applied to it, but I've never seen such a loosely specified calibre nomination before. I'd go for the 7mm Boo Boo, just because I'm childish and I'd like to see them type that one up.
 
There is no need to be more specific regarding xaviers permission to acquire

my brother and I have had 7 x 7mm rem mags over the last ten years and all we have them listed as is 7mm rifle

this is normal and perfectly legal

take it from someone who has direct multiple experiences

it is a common misconception that you need to be more specific

not at all
 
Xavier,

I would underline what Jon says above. My Rem Mag is listed simply as 7mm B/A Rifle and always has been.

Regards,

Tim
 
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