Free Floating Advice

Peter Eaton

Well-Known Member
After seeing Muirs thread regarding free floating I thought I would ask the advice of any with a bit of knowledge on here. I gather from what Muir was saying there are a few 'sad' attempts at free floating that pop up every now and again? I have so far free floated one rifle and that was My CZ 17hmr. I didnt exactly need to but as I had the stock off to get a few knocks out of it I decided to do so.
I relieved the whole barrell channel and also bedded the action in 'score hi' resin that a friend let me have. The result was superb, the rifle is a real 'tack driver' now and Im glad I did the work.
I have decide to do my second rifle which is a Remmy 700 SPS .223 which I use for foxes. The rifle is amazingly accurate when I partner it with Blitzkings and Benchmark powder.
I suppose I didnt need to free float and bed it but I wanted a better stock and bought a Bell and Carson stock for it.
The people at bell and carson said they make the stock so it is free floated along its length. But my question is...will the rifle shoot just as well when free floated as I believe Remington use 'forend pressure'....but is this due to the cruddy injected plastic stocks they use? Once again the action will be bedded, this time with Devcon.
Oh and if any of you shoot Remmys and cant get a round to stabilize...check the twist rate as I had this trouble and called Edgars who told me the rifles twist rate.....but when I checked with a cleaning rod it was different....I called them and they wouldnt have it. (even had some guy telling me I had changed the twist rate 'cos I had the barrell shortened :confused: ) but in the end I spoke to someone and he realised I was correct, so check your twist as it may not be as advertised by them.

Pete
 
By accounts of those who have done the work properly, like Redmist, free floating your Remington in the new stock will probably work. However you will need to carefully bed the action and pillars are probably a good idea ;)..now this I think is a classic:-

Oh and if any of you shoot Remmys and cant get a round to stabilize...check the twist rate as I had this trouble and called Edgars who told me the rifles twist rate.....but when I checked with a cleaning rod it was different....I called them and they wouldnt have it. (even had some guy telling me I had changed the twist rate 'cos I had the barrell shortened

Just goes to show that working in a gun place does not mean you know what your talking about :rolleyes:

Oh once you bed the new stock and try it out if by chance it does not shoot as well as before you can build up a fore stock pressure point of course. let us know how it turns out.
 
Hi Brit
Thanks for you reply and thanks for the advice. Yes I shall be doing the pillers but Im going to do them by drilling them out and making the solid plugs from Devcon as opposed to the aluminium route. I shall then bed the action. When you say build up the forend of the stock i take it you mean with shims until it shoots well , then bed it onto devcon? I shall indeed let you know how it turns out.
 
Maybe the oposers of free floating should recall all
sniper rifles off the front lines...and also the police forces.

I think pressure bedding could maybe work with a target rifle
but not with a hunting rifle that will have always changing pressure
on the forend due to ever changing ways the rifle is held or layed up
while hunting.

If one has a pressure bedded rifle and changes the pressure what happens?????
well if some say nothing and POI does not shift...then the earth is a disk.

A rifle is a harmonic system, change the harmonics and your POI will change.

Especially implying pressure to a barrel via materials which constantly change
their volume and stiffness value due to temperature and moisture content, such as wood
or nylon materials will worsen the problem.

I think the following often happens,
a pressure bedded rifle shoots half way ok, say an inch group after some ammo
developement. This rifle then free floated shoots say 1.5" ??? in reality one
would possibly just need to re-tune the ammo to the new harmonic set up.

For short range deer shooting the pressure bedded rifle combined with frequently
checking zero will be ok.

I would not even check the grouping of a new rifle if it is not free floated, I
would see that as an absolute waste of time.

edi
 
Maybe the oposers of free floating should recall all
sniper rifles off the front lines...and also the police forces.

I think pressure bedding could maybe work with a target rifle
but not with a hunting rifle that will have always changing pressure
on the forend due to ever changing ways the rifle is held or layed up
while hunting.

If one has a pressure bedded rifle and changes the pressure what happens?????
well if some say nothing and POI does not shift...then the earth is a disk.

A rifle is a harmonic system, change the harmonics and your POI will change.

Especially implying pressure to a barrel via materials which constantly change
their volume and stiffness value due to temperature and moisture content, such as wood
or nylon materials will worsen the problem.

I think the following often happens,
a pressure bedded rifle shoots half way ok, say an inch group after some ammo
developement. This rifle then free floated shoots say 1.5" ??? in reality one
would possibly just need to re-tune the ammo to the new harmonic set up.

For short range deer shooting the pressure bedded rifle combined with frequently
checking zero will be ok.

I would not even check the grouping of a new rifle if it is not free floated, I
would see that as an absolute waste of time.

edi

And I just wasted my time reading this :rolleyes:
 
Hi Brit
Thanks for you reply and thanks for the advice. Yes I shall be doing the pillers but Im going to do them by drilling them out and making the solid plugs from Devcon as opposed to the aluminium route. I shall then bed the action. When you say build up the forend of the stock i take it you mean with shims until it shoots well , then bed it onto devcon? I shall indeed let you know how it turns out.

How you bed the action to the new stock is your choice but as the stock is made to have the barrel free floated then try it that way and see how it shoots. If it does not shoot as well then if it were me I would be looking at replacing the fore stock bedding point. I believe that normal upwards pressure for a pressure point bed is about 10 lbs.
 
And I just wasted my time reading this :rolleyes:

I presume that is what you said every day after school.:p

If you advise someone to pressure bed with 10 lbs upward pressure, why would you choose 10 lbs?
If 10lbs where correct and the rifle zeroed at this pressure, would it not alter the POI if one changes the upward pressure to say 12 or 14 lbs?? if one for example lays up the rifle on the front of the forend.
Your theorie is flawed and you know it.
Just add a moderator to your barrel...only 1lb weight and see how much it alters the POI.

I prefer to have a rifle where there is no interference in the barrel pressure, no matter what shooting position I am using.

edi
 
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ejg, What you prefer makes no mind at all as proven by this diatribe you know very little really :rolleyes:. Now the figure of 10 lbs was not chosen by me but has been used in pressure point bedding for many decades. The OP's rifle has this pressure point bedding now and he is going to replace the stock. The stock chosen has the barrel routed out for free floating. However if the rifle does not shoot as well when fitted and bedded into this new stock then as I pointed out it fairly easy to build up the correct pressure point.

Now I thought that was simple enough to understand :rolleyes: but perhaps we need to make it more simple for you still?.

The fact that pressure point bedding works with good wood stocks is not theory. The system has been in use for well over 100 years.
 
I presume that is what you said every day after school.:p

If you advise someone to pressure bed with 10 lbs upward pressure, why would you choose 10 lbs?
If 10lbs where correct and the rifle zeroed at this pressure, would it not alter the POI if one changes the upward pressure to say 12 or 14 lbs?? if one for example lays up the rifle on the front of the forend.
Your theorie is flawed and you know it.
Just add a moderator to your barrel...only 1lb weight and see how much it alters the POI.

I prefer to have a rifle where there is no interference in the barrel pressure, no matter what shooting position I am using.

edi

Edi, there is more to getting accuracy out of a rifle than free floating the barrel. For many years light sporter barreled rifles had pressure bedding but it takes too much time and money for the modern mass production rilfes. It is still to be found on some "best" rifles. There is plenty available to read on the web if you wish to be enlightened.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/bedding_0304/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accurizing

ft
 
Pete ,
I have a standard Remmington in .223 - a Light Varmint Stainless fluted (the only reason i have typed that mouthfull is to be clear which model it is ) it has a synthetic Bell & Carlson stock , and is pressure bedded at the fore end tip - this is as it came out of the factory.
The only change from standard is i had the trigger tuned by the smith for a 1 3/4lb , creep free , break.
It shoots around 3/4" groups at 100 yd's using 55gr fmj factory fodder , not that its used for target though - its my fox gun ,it has been shot in every conceivable badly supported , non-consistent off hand grip that you can think of - and is still blindingly accurate , same off a bipod or sticks though .So whatever / wherever the pressure is on the fore end (hand , bipod or sticks ) it shoots to its set zero , every single time.
I am not against free floated barrels , far from it , but as far as i am concerned , if it aint broke , dont fix it .
Regards ,Steve
 
Ok what I shall do is for the moment is put the gun into the stock but not bed it. That way it will be more or less the same as the injected stock ...if the gun shoots well I shall then bed the action...if it shoots bad after that then...which I dont suppose it will I still have the option to free float the barrel. I just checked my Bell and Carson stock and it appears it has forend pressure and not floated as they said.

Many thanks guys

pete
 
Boys, boys, boys.....Cat fight , get me a bucket of water.......Meeeeeow !,
You are both correct on several points so kiss and make up, PLEASE. We are grown men with a common passion and are on here to support each other with help and advice. And (let's be honest) to get a little personal gain occasionally.
From my point of view though I would NOT cite the Police as examples of what to do and what not ! Even though improving your rifle yourself is admirable, and free floating following pillaring and correct bedding is the way to go. It makes sense to me to reduce and regulate the contact points because all a stock is, after all's said and done, is a "grip" on an action with a tube attatched. Reduce the variables to a minimum in a stable way and it will be more consistent. Think of it as a cymbal on a drum kit, tensioning from the screw via the felt contact point alters the pitch/frequency that it produces when struck, much like a shot being fired through a barrel. Make it consistent and it will reduce the variance ! Reduce the variance and it will be more consistent. After being on a military range (which shall remain unnamed) 6 years ago and seeing a Boy in blue put 2 x 9mm's out of a Glock through a panda door upon exit......yes 2 rounds. And, knowing a few Armed Response Guys. Their knowledge is far from 'graduate level' level, more like "I'm sorry to say Johnny's been kept back for his own benefit, he didn't quite grasp the use of plasticine this year, he's eaten all the red bits" ! Johnny (now 21) was thrilled, and beamed with a wide, red toothed grin !!! Anyways, crack on Boys.

:stir::stir::rofl:

Ade
 
Edi, there is more to getting accuracy out of a rifle than free floating the barrel. For many years light sporter barreled rifles had pressure bedding but it takes too much time and money for the modern mass production rilfes. It is still to be found on some "best" rifles. There is plenty available to read on the web if you wish to be enlightened.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/bedding_0304/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accurizing

ft

Flytie, believe me
every week someone comes to us asking how to fix their inconsistent
pressure bedded rifles.

Can one of you explain how a rifle with changing pressure can always consistently
shoot accurate. It is physically not possible. To make things worse, a thin sporter barrel will be more effected.
It might not make a very big difference in some cases and one is happy with the grouping.
If you want a higher degree of consistent accuracy, free floating is the way.
Just look at how sniper rifles are built nowadays, they learnt from the history.
They improved over time, they are not stupid...there is no money issue with them,
they are built to be consistently accurate under all conditions. Sniper rifles might
have been pressure bedded at one stage..long time ago, but now they improved
to be free floating.

edi
 
Flytie, believe me
every week someone comes to us asking how to fix their inconsistent
pressure bedded rifles.

Can one of you explain how a rifle with changing pressure can always consistently
shoot accurate. It is physically not possible. To make things worse, a thin sporter barrel will be more effected.
It might not make a very big difference in some cases and one is happy with the grouping.
If you want a higher degree of consistent accuracy, free floating is the way.
Just look at how sniper rifles are built nowadays, they learnt from the history.
They improved over time, they are not stupid...there is no money issue with them,
they are built to be consistently accurate under all conditions. Sniper rifles might
have been pressure bedded at one stage..long time ago, but now they improved
to be free floating.

edi

Edi, I agree with you that the modern trend is away from pressure bedding, and if I was to buy a modern rifle that free floated would be the way it came. But it does not mean to say that there were never any accurate rifles made before the modern trend towards free floating.

Now I am happy if I can place my bullet within 2" at 200 yds consistantly (my maximum range) and my Sako (free floated) is capable of this if I do my part. But it would make the deer no less dead than if I used one of Brits classics. He knows what accuracy his rifles are capable of, and it is not far out from a custom made modern rifles. I doubt that if I was fortunate enough to be able to buy a new Westley Richards/Boss/Holland & Holland/Purdey/ Jeffries rifle, classically made, that it would be wildly innacurate!

It is the same as using a side by side instead of a over & under, you would be unlikely to win a modern clay shooting championship with a SbS but get plenty of clean kills on game. Personally I like the fact that someone cares enough to keep traditionally made guns for modern day use, it adds to the rich variety of life, we would be poorer without them.

ft
 
This proves just how out of touch with the real world you are old man:-

Just look at how sniper rifles are built nowadays, they learnt from the history.
They improved over time, they are not stupid...there is no money issue with them,

MONEY is always an issue with any Military of government funded stuff. That and of course who gives the best back handers and freebies :mad:.

I was talking to a chap who was on the selection body for the last sniper rifle selection when the AI was chosen. Parker-Hale were still going then and in the running and had developed their rifle to acceptance levels then suddenly the AI was being accepted. It's a good rifle by all accounts but this chap who was on the team had not even seen the AI at that point so what happened there I wonder?

Just happened to be in the right place at the right time as he wandered into the range to see if anyone was interested in buying his target rifle which turned out to be a nice P-H 1200TX and it's now in my collection :D whilst asking him about it the fact that he spent a fair bit of time at P-H during that period came out.

Oh an quoting military hardware as the best sot really a good idea or shall we discuss the SA80/85 debacle? Weapons designed by committees are never much good.

Flytie, believe me
every week someone comes to us asking how to fix their inconsistent
pressure bedded rifles.

Probably been reading the shooting press and swallowed the whole myth too.

Now I have a rifle that I brought used that it's what I would call inconsistent, we have established that the bedding is no longer perfect and that it needs to be sorted. The rifle is a stalking rifle and I have been discussing the method or bedding with someone who is good at doing such things from this site. Now he would normally just do a pillar bedding and free float the barrel however this particular rifle has a few differences due to the drop magazine and the way it's retained. The stock is nicely figured walnut and having a 1-2mm gap around the barrel would totally spoil not only the look but any originality the rifle has. So the action bedding will be attended to along with any high spots in the barrel channel between barrel reinforce (knox form) and the fore tip pressure bedding point.

The rifle will then be tested for consistency and precision.

If it produces grouping 1 1/2 MOA or less then it will be left as is. We expect with the action evenly and tightly bedded that the precision will be better than this as it already gives groups better than this now but ............................................... but there are the odd fliers with no apparent pattern to them hence the need to sort the bedding before it's used for live quarry.

We also know that the first 10" of barrel is burnt and heat cracked but not washed out. We do not know how many rounds have gone through the barrel except those that I have fired which we can tot up ;). If after all this the rifle is still showing inconsistencies then we shall consider all options but only then as a last resort would free floating be considered. It's more likely that I would retire it to the collection and use another rifle than wreck the barrel channel after all it's not as if I don't have others to chose from :D.
 
Ok what I shall do is for the moment is put the gun into the stock but not bed it. That way it will be more or less the same as the injected stock ...if the gun shoots well I shall then bed the action...if it shoots bad after that then...which I dont suppose it will I still have the option to free float the barrel. I just checked my Bell and Carson stock and it appears it has forend pressure and not floated as they said.

Many thanks guys

pete

Sounds like a good plan - let us know how you get on .
regards
Steve
 
I quote Brithunter.

"I believe that normal upwards pressure for a pressure point bed is about 10 lbs."

I know nothing about the way a rifle is bedded into the stock, but this got me thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we talking about pressure applied to the barrel by the wood or other stock material at the fore end?

If this is the case, how is the 10lbs pressure measured?

Kind regards,

Mark.
 
I quote Brithunter.

"I believe that normal upwards pressure for a pressure point bed is about 10 lbs."

I know nothing about the way a rifle is bedded into the stock, but this got me thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we talking about pressure applied to the barrel by the wood or other stock material at the fore end?

If this is the case, how is the 10lbs pressure measured?

Kind regards,

Mark.

Mark yes the bedding point which is situated a little back from the tip of the fore stock and before any added on tip like rosewood, ebony etc. It either measured with a spring balance of as I have seen done by mounting the rifle upside down and a static weigh hung of the muzzle whilst the compound sets. Some of the best traditional stockers use a "Sweeny Collimeter" so set up the upwards pressure and ensure it's truly vertical in it's application of pressure.
 
Brit

as pressure bedding is so good tell us how your 25-06 shoots off a bipod, and how the poi never moves regardless of shooting position or rest used :confused::confused::confused:
 
I would not even check the grouping of a new rifle if it is not free floated, I
would see that as an absolute waste of time.

edi

I dont understand this bit? do you mean that a non free floated rifle would not be accurate? i have not found this to be the case. my rifles touch the wood:scared:, yes wood, all the way to the end of the stock and they shoot very straight and hold zero in all weathers. Luck maybe, but if i didnt check the capabilities i would certainly have wasted time and money.

pete
 
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