Qualifications and Experience to Mentor?

FrenchieBoy

Well-Known Member
I am hoping that someone can help me out on this one please. I have just had a letter back from my Firearms Office about my variation for a .243. Theyt are saying that the chap that was willing to mentor me (Quote) does not have the necessary experience! (End Quote) He has a full Open FAC with a .243 that is conditioned for Deer and he has his DSC1, exactly what more do they want?
I am led to believe that this "Mentoring" thing is not a "Legal Requirememt" and as such there are no guidelines for "Mentoring" in the HO Guidelines (Maybe someone could correct me on this if need be) Even so if there are any "guidelines" or "Rules" could someone please tell me exactly what qualifications or experience someone would need to have to be a "Mentor" as, if the police are going to insist on this then the onus rests on the montor if anything should go wrong.

I would address this question to the SACS but I do not think that they will be available till after the New Year!
 
No legal basis for this, excepting that the Chief Constable can enter anything they like as a "condition2 on your ticket, and as such you cannot appeal against it, but if you have the will to ask for them to give you written refusal if you don't want this "condition" you can appeal the refusal to issue, there is a lot of discussion on this & similar under thishttp://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?6870-A-tale-of-two-FAC-applications Steve.
 
If I were you I would ask them to clarify what exactly they expect a mentor to have, where it is written and copies of such proof and how many others have had this specific condition imposed on them. For after all, if your fire Arms Dept has been told this , then they must have some guidelines, if not how would it be policed?

Also if what they recommend has a cost implication for you then they cant impose that...Then write to The Chief Constable informing him of that.
 
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Funny that! I had exactly this conversation with donk (aka 'big steve') after a feo visit 2 days ago. The feo was talking about it because D&G are thinking about bringing it in. For an experieced person it seems like they must be a level 2, aw or employed stalker type. Level 1 won't cut it for the reasons given.
 
I am hoping that someone can help me out on this one please. I have just had a letter back from my Firearms Office about my variation for a .243. Theyt are saying that the chap that was willing to mentor me (Quote) does not have the necessary experience! (End Quote) He has a full Open FAC with a .243 that is conditioned for Deer and he has his DSC1, exactly what more do they want?
I am led to believe that this "Mentoring" thing is not a "Legal Requirememt" and as such there are no guidelines for "Mentoring" in the HO Guidelines (Maybe someone could correct me on this if need be) Even so if there are any "guidelines" or "Rules" could someone please tell me exactly what qualifications or experience someone would need to have to be a "Mentor" as, if the police are going to insist on this then the onus rests on the montor if anything should go wrong.

I would address this question to the SACS but I do not think that they will be available till after the New Year!

Mate, it sounds like your local Firearms Office have seriously got something against you owning that calibre!!!! Sounds like they're doing EVERYTHING they can to stop you obtaining a more powerful firearm than you currently hold authority for. Thank god I don't have similar issues here, it would drive me away from the sport!!!
 
Ask for clarifiaction as metined and pass it on to SACS legal to deal with and take it to court what if some one wants to get into our chosen sport and dont know any one else .(i didnt when i started).
Stop being so soft and get it straight back at them. wish you well mate. PS iAN HAS SORTED JUST THESE TYPES OF PROBLEMS MANY TIMES WILL BE NICE TO HERE IF HE SORTS ONE FOR THE english
 
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Maybe it is the fact your mentor does not have the required experience. I have an open ticket. I have level one. When I passed level one I had not picked up a rifle for 27 years. OK I was a keeper, soldier, pro stalker before that. Obviously they know things about your mate maybe you don't know. The statement is about your mate, not you. The thing is you have no comeback. Your mate would have to be the one to challenge.
Jim
 
frenchieboy... you already have the letter saying that your proposed mentor hasn't the neccessary experience, so either reply (in writing) asking what experience is required if you are happy to go down that route, or tell your FEO that you don't accept that the mentoring condition is lawful and to provide you with a written refusal.
Don't worry about 'rocking the boat' because it sounds like you've probably done that already :-|
If you dig your heels in, you'll get what you want eventually... and you won't have to spend the next 12mths trying to get the mentoring lifted.

;)
 
I am hoping that someone can help me out on this one please. I have just had a letter back from my Firearms Office about my variation for a .243. Theyt are saying that the chap that was willing to mentor me (Quote) does not have the necessary experience! (End Quote) He has a full Open FAC with a .243 that is conditioned for Deer and he has his DSC1, exactly what more do they want?
I am led to believe that this "Mentoring" thing is not a "Legal Requirememt" and as such there are no guidelines for "Mentoring" in the HO Guidelines (Maybe someone could correct me on this if need be) Even so if there are any "guidelines" or "Rules" could someone please tell me exactly what qualifications or experience someone would need to have to be a "Mentor" as, if the police are going to insist on this then the onus rests on the montor if anything should go wrong.

I would address this question to the SACS but I do not think that they will be available till after the New Year!

Frenchie
from the info that you hav given about your mentor
Then I believe your FLD is right to refuse them on the grounds of being inexperienced
if you can't sell your goods to me then what are you expecting a person or persons with out knowledge to believe
FFS
get your own bookshelf in order first
choose a mentor that is respected and can proove themselves beyond doubt
all I see is you moaning about what you can't hav not offering an alternative to it
the more you fight nails with a hammer the tougher the nails become
if you want some real advice talk to your FEO until you are conviced that your FEO or FLM can't or won't help you in the direction you want to go
then call in the likes of SACS
Ian will fight fire with fire, but you will be left with the smouldering ashes
are you ready for that yet
if you want some real informative advice then give us the full story from the off
as there are guys that hav been in your position that can and will help with some very usefull advice
but be honest about it
 
Frenchie
from the info that you hav given about your mentor
Then I believe your FLD is right to refuse them on the grounds of being inexperienced
if you can't sell your goods to me then what are you expecting a person or persons with out knowledge to believe
FFS
get your own bookshelf in order first
choose a mentor that is respected and can proove themselves beyond doubt
all I see is you moaning about what you can't hav not offering an alternative to it
the more you fight nails with a hammer the tougher the nails become
if you want some real advice talk to your FEO until you are conviced that your FEO or FLM can't or won't help you in the direction you want to go
then call in the likes of SACS
Ian will fight fire with fire, but you will be left with the smouldering ashes
are you ready for that yet
if you want some real informative advice then give us the full story from the off
as there are guys that hav been in your position that can and will help with some very usefull advice
but be honest about it

I'm sorry Stone but I don't quite understand what you mean when you say that you believe they are right about refusing my mentor on the grounds of being inexperienced. The question I was asking was what experience of qualifications did you need to be a mentor, I did not state anywhere how much experience this friend has. I don't mean to sound rude but are you guessing at how much or how little experience this chap has?
As for not offering an alternative I am now in the position to do exactly that! I have been talking to the Police Liaison Officer from our local Rifle and Pistol Club and he has just offered to mentor me. With regards to any questions about his ability or experience I will say that he has already mentored another FAC holder for the Lancs Area (The same area as me) for a .243 so there can be no question regarding his experience or qualifications. I have in fact written a letter stating this to my Firearms Office informing them of this and given them his full details so that they can contact him for confirmation. I can understand someone saying that I had not offered an alternative but this offer only came up after I made the original post on this thread!
As for you saying that if I want some informative advice then give us the full story, maybe you could justify this and tell me where you feel that I have not been open and honest please?
 
I'd point out one thing to your flo, if you travel to Scotland you can shoot deer with your .222 without any moderation of any sort or any level 1 course,
there is nothing in the home office guide lines about any moderation/mentoring.

Even if you have a mentor out with you and something happens it is down to you the person who is in charge of the weapon not the mentor .

They have issued you with one centre fire rifle IE your .222 which can do the same job as the .243 .
Hence Your require the .243 to join a deer stalking syndicate due to the fact of there are Red deer on the land also you have been asked to visit other lands where you require a .243 due to similar conditions .

What I'd like to know is just who says the moderator/mentor knows what he's doing or talking about ?
'

Experence is a thing the grows with knowledge you don't get it from bits of paper .
 
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This difficulty has only arisen because we as the applicants ,& organisations such as B.A.S.C. etc will not, or can not grasp the nettle............ no basis in law for much of this crap they fasten on to us.
 
In all honesty (and I say this with flack jacket donned and tin hat on )

It was going to happen that those coming into the sport should be mentored in a correct and proper manner, I think all the accomplished stalkers on here did have a mentor IE being put with a forest ranger or purchased days with a professional stalker or with someone of similar standing and thats how we learned the trade as it was. Similar to being an apprentice we all made mistakes and learned by them,anyone who claims he hasnt made a mistake whilst stalking is a lying ****. With being accompanied by a mentor this hopefully would put a new stalker in a better position of having the benefit of not repeating similar mistakes that we ourselves have encounted by the new stalker.

The Chief Officer of Police in my view has a duty to protect the public from any idiotic behaviour that may be seen as a negligent act to the best of his ability, and what better vehicle for him than trained experts in the field such as ourselves, if I was in his position i would most certainly do exactly has he is doing by imposing this mentoring condition and anyone with a modecum of sense can see it as the way forward in the grant and use of a Firearm that is being used. Such Action is in the interest of the public safety

Just my Honest Opinion
With that I will get my heeeeed down whilst the incoming salvos are deployed:stir:
regards
Stu
 
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I'm in full agreement with some sort of mentoring, just like I had as an apprentice............... It's just the fact this has no basis in law!.............. forcing the issue is something that makes my hackles rise!
 
I'm in full agreement with some sort of mentoring, just like I had as an apprentice............... It's just the fact this has no basis in law!.............. forcing the issue is something that makes my hackles rise!

Thats the British defiance thats in all of us coming out non of us likes to be told that we HAVE to Do This as its now compulsary and its this that your rebelling and want to make a stand against not the fact that the chief officer of police sees quite rightly in his opinion and a most sensible opinion at that which non of us here can deny. But ask yourself this, WHAT OPTION OTHER THAN THE ACTION HE WISHES TO ENFORCE ON NEW APPLICATION can he do to protect the public from harm, thats his job not just to enforce the law.

He has been given such powers in the act to enforce any condition he sees fit and proper you could of course challenge the condition on an new application but no Court is going to over rule such a condition as its reasonable and he would argue its in the public interest that he cares for there safety.
 
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It was going to happen that those coming into the sport should be mentored in a correct and proper manner
There is no legislation 'for those coming into the sport'. We're talking about grant of FAC under UK firearms law, which seems to be mutating into some kind of surrogate Teutonic-style 'hunting training' by the abuse of FLD's powers of condition-setting.
One can be perfectly safe with a firearm wthout being a competant stalker; the reverse is not true, of course.

I think all the accomplished stalkers on here did have a mentor IE being put with a forest ranger or purchased days with a professional stalker or with someone of similar standing and thats how we learned the trade as it was.
I'm sure that this is true in most cases. The fact that it is true should probably be taken to suggest that further restriction is not needed.

The Chief Officer of Police in my view has a duty to protect the public from any idiotic behaviour that may be seen as a negligent act to the best of his ability
Your view notwithstanding, this is what the current law says:

A firearm certificate shall be granted where the chief officer of police is satisfied—.
(a)that the applicant is fit to be entrusted with a firearm to which section 1 of this Act applies and is not a person prohibited by this Act from possessing such a firearm;.
(b)that he has a good reason for having in his possession, or for purchasing or acquiring, the firearm or ammunition in respect of which the application is made; and.
(c)that in all the circumstances the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm or ammunition in his possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

It seems that since 1920, the CC has been able to discharge his duty as defined above by the normal methods of enquiry. As far as I'm aware, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the law or practice needs to be changed in this regard: and if there is no need for further restriction, I think we should see it as our duty to resist such change.

...and what better vehicle for him than trained experts in the field such as ourselves
What evidence is there of the need either for this 'mentoring', or the need to embrace of the tyrrany of 'trained experts'?

Inparticular the latter is something I feel we would do well to avoid unless we want an expensive and cliquey set-up as seen, say, in Germany. There are clearly many who would benefit in terms of money and self-esteem from such an arrangement, but that doesn't make it right.

if I was in his position i would most certainly do exactly has he is doing by imposing this mentoring condition and anyone with a modecum of sense can see it as the way forward in the grant and use of a Firearm that is being used.
Few will be surprised to find that I clearly don't have a 'modecum of sense' :)

Such Action is in the interest of the public safety
It should be customary when suggesting further restrictions on the law-abiding to produce some evidence beyond 'honest opinions' in support.


Just my Honest Opinion

While not questioning your personal integrity, I have to question the use of the word 'honest' in conjuction with suggestions for further restrictions on law-abiding FAC-holders whent here appears to be no evidence that public safety would be even remotely improved thereby. If it were a politician making such a suggestion, I think the word 'disingenuous' would be the the kindest adjective most of us would use.

We have been over 'conditioned mentoring' at length here http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?6111 and elsewhere, and the notion that a FAC should be granted where the CC has not satisfied himself before grant as to the conditions in italics above is simply preposterous. That being the case, what on earth is the point of 'conditioned mentoring'?
 
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