Are DMG's a con job

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jimbo123p

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Last night the WLDMG had a meeting. Productive and forward looking. However I have never been happy about the millions of acres of new woodland arguement. As we have seen a wee bit of wood put up for syndication is soon over subscribed. One thing I have noticed in interviews recently is the acceptance and promotion of deer management by the antis and pressure groups. Their tack is "Yes deer have to be controlled but not in the name of sport. Take it a stage further by taking out the sports stalkers. The hole left in provision is vast. If you travel from York to Dumfies to cull is it sport or essencial work? To shut down the sports eliment of stalking you need teams on the ground to control deer numbers. SNH are advocating DMG formation. As yet that is not manifesting itself into ground to control. With the amount of money pumped in in management terms really by now it should.
Are we a safety valve if and when the anti-sports body gets its way?

I could at this stage progress that thought but I will throw the speculation open to others/
Jim
 
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Last night the WLDMG had a meeting. Productive and forward looking. However I have never been happy about the millions of acres of new woodland arguement. As we have seen a wee bit of wood put up for syndication is soon over subscribed. One thing I have noticed in interviews recently is the acceptance and promotion of deer management by the antis and pressure groups. Their tack is "Yes deer have to be controlled but not in the name of sport. Take it a stage further by taking out the sports stalkers. The hole left in provision is vast. If you travel from York to Dumfies to cull is it sport or essencial work? To shut down the sports eliment of stalking you need teams on the ground to control deer numbers. SNH are advocating DMG formation. As yet that is not manifesting itself into ground to control. With the amount of money pumped in in management terms really by now it should.
Are we a safety valve if and when the anti-sports body gets its way?

I could at this stage progress that thought but I will throw the speculation open to others/
Jim

Could you clarify what the following stand for

WLDMG

SNH

DMG

Thanks
 
West Lothian deer management group, Scottish Natural Heritage, and Deer management group. When Deer Commission Scotland was swallowed up by SNH there was a vast swing to promote local groups forming Deer Management groups through central Scotland. To do so SNH formed a management team with high profile employees found the most prominant being Ronnie Rose.
Jim
 
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Jim, in Scotland we have had DMGs for a long time almost all hill stalking will come under a DMG in most cases they work well enough area groups are made up of those with an interest in deer in an area, basically landowners or lease holders
counts and culls are set for an area, a DMG will cover that area they will decide how cull will be proportioned.

I know what I mean and how it works but don't think I have explained very well hopefully some of the other hill men will explain it better.

Also though this system works well enough for the hill not sure how it would work in a low ground situation where you could have a lot of much smaller pieces of land, and a lot more conflict of interest.
 
Jim, I have said this before, this whole bullsh1t proposition that we are somehow "deer managers" is just rubbish.

There are really very few stalkers who are genuinely deer managers. Some of us are stalkers who love the sport, some are "professionals" who earn their living guiding paying punters and some are paid / contract cullers, - no doubt there are other sub groups.

The outcome of all these activities is (a) a necessary reduction in the deer numbers, (b) a supply of top quality meat, and (c) some guys earn a living.

I see a very undesireable drift towards "professional culling / managing" as being somehow virtuous and acceptable to the BBC types, and the condemnation of the rest of us as bloody thirsty savages and throw backs. Undoubtedly some of the "professionals" are happy for this to happen.

No one should be fooled by this apparent opinion swing. Either all shooters, deerstalkers etc stand together or we will be picked off one by one. We all saw the LACS d1ckhead interviewed by the BBC in Robbo's little programme. Deer numbers should be controlled by natural means - disease, starvation, and in Scotlannd, wolves. This is what these guys really believe. We all know they are a small minority, but they are vociferous and indulged by the likes of the BBC.

Anyway to relate this to DMG's, all I see are self appointed "experts" who want to take control of the stalking of big swathes of ground, exclude the likes of ye and me, and basically make money out of this.

If you analysis the vast majority of unpleasant human behaviours, it generally comes down to the pursuit of money.
 
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Reply to Bogtrotter
The remits between the original and that promoted by SNH are vastly different. The local dmg's are groups of individuals not landowners/holders set up as a volenteer body to help manage deer in an area. The original deer management groups landowners that manage deer for their numbers and sporting potential. These group members tend to be the likes of Atholl where land holdings are in thousands of acres. The dmg I am part of covers West Lothian but while most members do stalk within the bounderies the idea is to get collaborative deer management where land ownership is far less formal. We have vast areas of industrial estates with huge area of untended green land around. Old coal workings, forestry, council holdings, motorway networks, Green areas where there are little control of deer numbers other than poachers. If it is green there is high public access with the relivent hazzards. SNH do recognise the necessity of controlling deer numbers in these areaswhere there can be a public outcry if Bambi is scratched. Remember I am from up your way. I worked on deer estates for key members of the deer management groups. Deer management central Scotland is a completely different ball game. My question re the con is "Are moves afoot to ban deer stalking for sport?"
Jim
 
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Gents before going off half cocked here, there was consultation by the Forestry Commission research teams with reference to Peri urban Deer management ,due to the huge numbers of Deer within town and city limits, to collate and find ways to reduce such numbers, as there had been various Deer problems IE road traffic accidents Deer in gardens, unsuitable areas etc .

There was a DCS best practice day, at Mudock park north of Glasgow, set up as a Peri urban Deer day showing the problems with current restrictions and problems, in controlling the large Deer numbers currently within the problem areas, green belt areas in towns etc .

The day it's self went well with information being passed back and forth between DCS , FC and the stalkers present a excellent cross section of people , this is one of the reasons that some stalkers, have taken to initiative and started Deer management groups ,knowing as a single person trying to open doors with councils etc there would have little or no chance ,but as a group constituted with a sole intention of carrying out peri urban deer management under the direction of SNH/DCS best practice, would further strengthen the cause for Peri urban Deer management .

Claret dabbler your self appointed experts are the members of staff of the SNH/DCS, which heading up the team is Ronald Rose the collaborative Deer manager for SNH a world renowned "expert" in his field ,so yes there area at least one person knows what he's talking about there's also Jamie Hammond DCS central Scotland Deer officer , who will come out and check all problem areas, further clarifying Deer problems with a thermal imaging camera .

Large areas of land mmmm No sorry from about 2 acres to 100 plus acres of land ,some of it old brown field site some of it current park land, but mainly newly planted community granted forestry and shrubbery areas, Roe Deer as we all know will live any where the get peace, to do so that is fact, for those that know Glasgow Airport there's a Roe Deer buck living on a roundabout 100 mtrs from the terminal building quite happy with himself .

Therefore before we all have a hissy fit saying what a load of shjte, think about the work that has went into it firstly ,SNH/DCS has had a huge part, in generating Urban Deer management groups, I wonder why, could it be because they see a problem, with Roe Deer ,thus wanting local stalkers who have the same qualifications as professional contractors to carry out the local Deer management.
 
At this moment in time SNH/DCS are treading very carfully and there past mishaps up north could almost bring down a council or government was it to happen were we are. I cannot imgaine pictures of Deer getting swung over the briget or rose street going down to well with the General public. I als saw the DCS/SNH try and deal with a very simple problem of a few deer in a factory ground Diagios whisky plant and there was an outcry at they way it was done. They have helpped the groups to a point but will not promote them and the reasons i have just put up and others are why.If the **** hits the fan and there is a problem with local deer groups and the General public it will go back at them. There are no real deer problems at this moment even though we have good numbers in certain areas.A few deer hit on the roads is not a problem and will not go away no mater what we do.In fact in the central belt area 10 x more accidents are cause by foxes than deer. At the forrestry Research did there public opiniondata collaction it became very clear that the public wnat no deer culled and all other options must be conciderd first. The problem is not now it is in the near future when the CSGN moves into full flow 12,000 hec of new comunity planting a year and no real control in the small areas means deer will multiply at an alaming rate. Deer groups MIGHT fit in to this nich. Plantings to small for leaseing not suitable for a contractor who will not control him self because he is cash motovated FC rangers might do it but that would mean the goverment realeasing more cash to the deer industry. There is only only one more option Deer Groups not regulated by government but trained enough for Governments support. How to support them with out supporting them is the key.;)
 
Anyway to relate this to DMG's, all I see are self appointed "experts" who want to take control of the stalking of big swathes of ground, exclude the likes of ye and me, and basically make money out of this.

If you're forming a political party Brian sign me up! The one thing deer stalking needs is fewer, rather than more, interferring busy bodies.
 
On the whole bigger area commercial stalking enterprises are better than the majority of stalking syndicates. The reason being to earn they must produce. To produce they must kill deer. How long would yorshire stalking or any other enterprise succeed if they did not put clients in front of deer? They therefore manage no matter the weather. syndicates tend to work, take it or leave it if conditions are not right. However it is not the reason for the thread. I was at Mugdock for the best practice meeting. However, fox hunting got the bullet, stalking is the next in line. The antis have not gone away. To ban stalking as such deer still needs to be controlled. The question is who by?
Jim
 
Anyway to relate this to DMG's, all I see are self appointed "experts" who want to take control of the stalking of big swathes of ground, exclude the likes of ye and me, and basically make money out of this.
.

Hi Brian,

I must admit that this attitude is one that has been branded about regarding such groups.

I assure you as member of the Wldmg group that policy is not relating to this group and i assure you that, it will never be a policy, also Ye and Me are welcome to join and no-one will ever be excluded in any of our plans.

None of the group are self appointed experts and we (Wldmg) are all learning new things every day. we have and are putting together very comprehensive training which all members are participating in and sharing.

Our group would be happy to dicuss your reservations and i for one would be only too happy to help put such misconceptions to bed.


Frank
 
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The obvious long term plan that 'the powers above' are clearly hoping for is with fewer stalkers killing more deer. While we don't like it the idea of more controlled culling through dmg's only it has obvious benefits. Groups are easier to work with and apply a measure of control to compared to individuals. That great if you have SNH printed on your paycheck but if your a recreational stalker it seems balls.

ps edit, dmg's are a good thing in my opinion
 
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Coming from red deer ground where DMG'S have been going awhile, they work reasonably well with all the different aim's of individual owners reflected in management policy.
I can see how the adoption of the DMG model could be more involved with multiple small land owners across more urban and small farm sites but i think this will prove a benifit to rec stalkers as well.
The DMG plan is just an overall area strategy for the control and management of the deer population. It does not need to change who delivers the boots on the ground , only that every one is singing of the same hymn sheet.
I would expect if ths model is adopted across the lowlands the south and more urban areas, more stalking opportunities may be created as farms,councils , NGO,s and charities who own ground that hold deer will have to adopt a deer management plan.
 
Coming from red deer ground where DMG'S have been going awhile, they work reasonably well with all the different aim's of individual owners reflected in management policy.
I can see how the adoption of the DMG model could be more involved with multiple small land owners across more urban and small farm sites but i think this will prove a benifit to rec stalkers as well.
The DMG plan is just an overall area strategy for the control and management of the deer population. It does not need to change who delivers the boots on the ground , only that every one is singing of the same hymn sheet.
I would expect if ths model is adopted across the lowlands the south and more urban areas, more stalking opportunities may be created as farms,councils , NGO,s and charities who own ground that hold deer will have to adopt a deer management plan.

here here,

i am sure our group chair from this site (GAZZA) would love the chance to discuss how successful these groups are and why they are. I will mention this to him and i would expect a pm from him soon.
At the end of the day no stalker should loose out as thats not the idea behind these groups especially Wldmg. All we are attempting to do is offer a service to land owners etc that will benefit them and and the deer. Its not all about boots on the ground with that piece of metal on your back, its quite far from that.

frank
 
The thread is not about the policies or management of DMG's. The point I am trying to put over is stalking as we know it under threat from goverment bending to preasure from the antis' Millions are being spent lobbying to get it done and the message is not falling on deaf ears. Look at the SGA or BASC sites re fieldsports in Scotland. Snaring, breeding partridge, raptor killing, hunting with dogs, any way they can get at the shooting groups they will. They did for hounds, next target is the deer, followed by the "bred to be shot" birds, Anything they can get the sympathy vote for. They have the budget. The SNH help and input is disproportionate to the help on the ground. Dmag are being promoted but held back by the same bodies,
Jim
 
Frank success you'll have to define success ,in my eyes success is where a DMG is being used to the full, now that's all the members carrying out deer management on varying scales from counts, impact and habitat assessments, then if required removal and not just for those that are running the show.

On the above statement the recreational stalker, is dubious to the fact, how he is going to fore fill part of this management process, if he joins a DMG, what is his role going to be. is he ever going to get out and carry out deer management.

There's also how this is going to come about, how can this be soled to the public the the land owners,the police the local councils , airing the maximum potential there are many agencies out the that have been promoting deer for a long time, with limited success, they have all the why's and wherefores at the hand ,discussion within these areas may just help everyone understand, what Deer management groups are all about, within central Scotland, peri urban deer management great heading with little meaning at this moment .
 
How does the WLDMG work?

I'm not saying it's good or bad but I wonder about people popping up and claiming to be an area group. For instance, in this area we had a thing called the South Lanarkshire Rural Forum. They took little to do with deer or wildlife issues, fortunately, but I cite them as an example of what I believe to be unhealthy practice. It was comprised of a bunch of left-wing, self appointed, incommer, commuters who wouldn't know rural if it was in their soup and who talked to no-one except their own circle of pals. At one point they lobbied local government and the Scottish executive heavily on a wide range of matters too. They even got their spokesperson quoted on TV, Radio and printed media and seemed to be taken quite seriously as representing true rural interests. They actually only represented their own narrow range of views and in recent years seem to have evaporated as mysteriously as they arrived.

So, I'd like to know more about DMG's in the Central belt (I'm already familiar with DMG's as they operate in the Perthshire hills and beyond)

How is WLDMG constituted?

Do you actually represent all of West Lothian?

Are you self appointed or are you selected from within the ranks of ALL interested parties in West Lothian?
 
Jim, I find it hard to see a situation where the anti's can really impact on deer stalking policy across the board. Why do I say this? Well let’s look at the recent Environ a bit mental bill from SNH, where the legitimate rights of deer stalkers are to be messed with through such a bill a lot of people kick off. If anything has been learned recently in terms of smart politics it is to avoid stirring a hornets’ nest and play a cautious card.
 
Developing a level of creditability for a DMG must be a bit difficult if some members haven't gone to the effort of getting trained hunter status/DSC 1.

Perhaps it's an indication of the level of motivation of any potential member if they have at least made a start at the deer management qualifications.

All doom and gloom I know, I am generally against compulsory competency. The level to aspire to would appear to be qualified to contractor status, and there are a lot of qualifications, at notable cost involved in that.
 
The SLDG has now been running for 18 months and the constitution is wrote down and followed.The committee was voted in and can be voted back out in two year intervals. The group was put in place to help the Rec stalkers get ready for the future legislation and beyond, The group is mainly Training based with most members already holding large bits of there own ground. The infrastructure was not in place for training in the central belt and many Best Practice days passed us by. The government through DCS were not aware of many practitioners in deer in the central belt area. Many in my own area had not even heard of lev 1 - 2 and really did not care much for the full government interference thing. They were aware of the DCS but thought they were a bunch of deer stalkers from up north. Up to date we have had a Workshop day for all the central belt this was driven by the groups and we are having a collaborative training day to day with a guest speaker Ronnie Rose. In may we are to have a full assessment day for 8 members drawn from three groups this will be followed by one in june The barony collage are supporting the groups in this venture. We will be ready if and when it comes that we need to manage our own deer to a set government standard. The groups hopefully should pass on local information to each other and make sure that this lonely sport pastime or passion of ours is kept within our own control.
My wish is that any one stalking at this moment in time and in the future will be able to contact there local DMG and get help with training and knowledge and realistic prices. Membership cost at this point in time are £30 to be reviewed in September. this covers you for a full years and gives you that all important £10.mil insurance .I hope this help any questions.
PS THIS IS NOT A ROAD INTO STALKING THAT ROAD IS YOUR CHOICE WEATHER IT BE FARMER LAND FORRRESTRY OR CONTRACT.
 
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