mentoring..(land restrictions)

apollo

Well-Known Member
Hi, a boy thats been shooting with us for around 3 yrs, ive known him through the terriers for 25 yrs has just applied for a firearms certificate and its thought as hes applied for a 308 for deer and boar he may have to accept the mentoring condition, my question is if i was to mentor him could i do so on all my land or only on the two blocks he has of his own.

many thanks eddie
 
depends on whether the land is cleared for .308 as I asume he will have closed ticket on first application.

also he should really get permission to shoot on your land (not neccessarily written)
 
It depends on whether his certificate is specific to only his named ground or not and would allow for shooting on other grounds where he has permission under the supervision of a mentor but.... Also, is your ground cleared for use of that calibre because I know some areas are strange saying for example that a named ground may only use up to say .243??
 
Thats true boys im not sure that much of the ground we shoot is cleared for 308 because we both have open tickets so it might not be an option, thats a pity as we will have to go through the written permission and land clearance for all of it by the looks.....many thanks eddie
 
i had the same problem when i first got my fac last year, even though i had my own bit of ground with deer on they insisted i had to have a mentor?? i asked about going out with him on his ground and was told that i had to have written permission from the landowner to shoot on there even though my mentor would be taking me??? load of old codswollop if you ask me but unless you've got the time and patience there is no arguing with your fld. well not with west mercia anyway not worth the hassle!!

Regards, Jez.
 
sounds like he might aswell turn down the mentoring and we will get him written onto some of the land we shoot as we go along and he can keep putting it in to get it cleared
 
I'm just a spectator on this thread but, I have a couple of questions.

What is this notion that only certain calibres/cartridges may be used on certain land?

What terms of reference are used in deciding?
 
My mate had his visit today and a few things have arose from it id like to run past you all...

1..even though hes agreed to a mentoring condition they want him to do a dsc 1 course or at least book it or no fac and if he dosent then take the coarse they will revoke his fac..

2..even though one of his 3 blocks of land has boar on it they think it unlikely he will be granted a 308 for his first grant but will allow a 243 for deer..

3..and he has provided names numbers and addresses for said land but now he has to take forms to them all to be filled in, is all this nessesery
 
1. Gonads... Dsc1 cannot be enforced.

2. Testicles... to obtain FAC for any calibre you must provide good reason, wild boar present is good reason.

3. Crown Jewels... Only 1 written permission letter is required

FEO's will try it on if you let them :D
 
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I never had any of this stuff off gwent when i applied, im sure hes trying to enforce his own agenda as we provided proof and they checked face to face or phoned for comformation, so ive told him as they want written and face to face he should ask for any refusal on any grounds to be put in writing for basc to look at...
 
Si

Re 1. above.

How can you say it can't be enforced when licensing categorically refuse to grant without. Surly a Chief Constable has the power and authority to determine force policy.
 
Si

Re 1. above.

How can you say it can't be enforced when licensing categorically refuse to grant without. Surly a Chief Constable has the power and authority to determine force policy.

A Chief Constable has no Authority to enforce DSC1 on new applicants... he can suggest or recommend it but not make it mandatory, and can certainly not revoke an FAC if the holder chooses not to complete the course.
 
My mate had his visit today and a few things have arose from it id like to run past you all...

1..even though he's agreed to a mentoring condition they want him to do a dsc 1 course or at least book it or no fac and if he dosent then take the coarse they will revoke his fac..

Ask the force for its policy on CF for deer and boar in writing (verbal statements are worthless).
Having to do DSC1 and have a mentor is OTT. My force asked for one or the other not both.


2..even though one of his 3 blocks of land has boar on it they think it unlikely he will be granted a 308 for his first grant but will allow a 243 for deer..
If he has good reason (ie boar) they cannot refuse.

3..and he has provided names numbers and addresses for said land but now he has to take forms to them all to be filled in, is all this necessary

Oh not form 646.
On renewal all I did was to get the landowner to sign a letter I wrote stating that deer were on the farm (IE good reason).
If you fill out form 646 it is a legal document and you bear the responsibility for it, which is why plod like it so much.
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Si

I know where you are coming from but many forces including the one next to me categorically refuse to grant unless the new applicant has a DSC1.

When BASC and other legal advice has been sought their advice has been "the CC is within his right so if you want to shoot deer you will have to take your DSC."

Right or wrong but when an applicant meets this sort of brick wall they have no room for maneuver, they are not being refused the grant of an fac but being refused the condition to shoot deer and as you know conditions may not be challenged or appealed in court.

It may not be in the firearms act but then many of the rules we have to follow aren't.

When someone is faced with this ruling what are they to do.
 
Si

I know where you are coming from but many forces including the one next to me categorically refuse to grant unless the new applicant has a DSC1.

When BASC and other legal advice has been sought their advice has been "the CC is within his right so if you want to shoot deer you will have to take your DSC."

BASC said to me the opposite, he has no right only force policy and that the force's policy WRT acquiring a CF have no legal basis and the refusal to grant or vary a FAC can be challenged in crown court.

Right or wrong but when an applicant meets this sort of brick wall they have no room for maneuver, they are not being refused the grant of an fac but being refused the condition to shoot deer and as you know conditions may not be challenged or appealed in court.

Yes they are being refused the grant of a FAC, the applicant can appeal in court against the refusal of a grant of a FAC or its variation. When you make the application the force decides whether you have satisfied their policy and then the FAC is granted subject to their conditions which you satisfy in your application. If you apply and the policy is not satisfied the FAC is not granted and then you can appeal.


It may not be in the firearms act but then many of the rules we have to follow aren't.

Force policy again, has no legal basis.
When someone is faced with this ruling what are they to do.
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the thing is where is the common sense in the process, this boy has been shooting guns for years and has been stalking with us for 3 seasons now and now feels its time to get started, hes a manager of one of wales largest slaughter houses and understands about safety aswell as processing food for human consumption and knows more about animal organs and glands than we do hes 50 yrs old and never been a lad but none of this helps them realise he dosent need more obsticals to jump over just to get into stalking.

We have agreed to nentor him for as long as they say but even that was not an issue when i applied for my first deer calibre, so why is there no common sense in this as he could pay his £300 and do his level 1 easily as his knowledge is very good but why should he be forced into it and as stated hes been killing and putting animals into the food chain since he left school and i realise thats not anything to do with deerstalking but parts of it would overlap, so it looks like its going to be more expense and see if they try anything else to trip him up, all conditions will be asked to be explained in writing from here on in.....many thanks for your input
 
Jack

Thank you that info.

A colleague who's farm, 650 acres, is over the county border from mine is being given the run around. I will pass on the advice.

He has a .22.250 for foxing but would like the ability to thin out a few Reds when they descend on his mowing grass but as I said they want him to get a DSC first when he's had the 22.250 for probably 20 years.

Again, thanks

Charlie
 
A colleague who's farm, 650 acres, is over the county border from mine is being given the run around. I will pass on the advice.

Charlie, which force is it - Avon & Somerset?

He has a .22.250 for foxing but would like the ability to thin out a few Reds when they descend on his mowing grass but as I said they want him to get a DSC first when he's had the 22.250 for probably 20 years.
Sounds as if they are trying to apply a blanket policy which they might wish new entrants to stalking/shooting to adhere to. Has he had anything in writing from them as to reasons? If not he maybe needs to get keep all interaction with them in writing/email. The HO Guidance clearly states that each application must be considered on it's own merits - it could give him something to work with?

As Jack has indicated, it amounts to a refusal to issue if he doesn't want to comply with onerous conditions and they won't issue without his prior agreement. Is he a member of any of the shooting organisations?
 
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