We often read and hear things about shooting animals that aren't listed on our certificates.
On this forum there is a thread about someone not being given permission by their constabulary to have foxes on their ticket, even though they have deer.
I know of many times when stalkers (with the permission of the landowner) have shot foxes and other vermin, not on their ticket. Would the police seriously act if they found that a stalker had shot a fox but technically weren't allowed to do so?
I can't believe they would, but it's a strange and mixed up world!!!!
I don't know about that. I have known people get warnings for failing to comply with thier conditions. You could be prosecuted for it. Of course you could always vary your certificate so that you can shoot fix and panthers.
Its a long time ago now but after some quite long lasting disagreements with the Firearms Dept I had the police 'waiting' for me or following me and stopping me on various occasions and specifically on a few occasions as I left a particular field after dark from sitting in a hide waiting for deer. They were most concerned that I brought a couple of hares off the field since it must have both been shot after dark (which of course is illegal) and with my deer rifle but they ultimately agreed the body heat left must have meant death took place before dark and that Pest Control did indeed cover Hares even if wanted for the pot.
Common sense always prevailed but I felt that prosecution could well have been the ultimate outcome for something if my circumstances had been only slightly different considering the 'aggressive' manner taken.
I am pleased to say that nowadays my relationship with the present Firearms Department could not be better with respect and understanding on both sides.
As I understand it, conditions put on a FAC by the police are not backed by any law passed by parliament, so long as you have not broken any other law while breaking any condition put by the chief constable there is no case that the crown prosecution could bring before a court of law. However I recon with good justification the FLO would pull your ticket, after all if you can not be trusted to obey your FAC conditions you would likely have that cavalier attitude to Law in general.
While the conditions are part of a legal binding document, braking them is not a criminal offence, if it were a law to reflect this would have to be passed in parliament. If you shot a fox with your 308 without it being passed for shooting foxes while stalking you would not end up with a criminal conviction for doing so.
Not that I advocate anybody breaking the conditions on your FAC, if the conditions are unduly restrictive make a constructive request to your FLO to have them changed, only if you are trying to bull**** him will you have trouble getting them lifted.
The first condition on your certificate is that you sign it. If you do not do that you will, as I now understand it, be prosecuted as per the Home Office instruction to all Constabularies. It will be the same if you do not notify the Police of change of address within the required time span.
I see the conditions on my certificate as part of the requirements that I must legally adhere to so that I am not in contrevention of the Firearms Acts.
To shoot quarry for which you have no authority would be no different in law to using your rifles for any other illegal purpose. It is not difficult to obtain permissions to shoot wahtever you want so why not deal with nthings correctly. Just becuse it doesnt state I cannot shoot something it doesnt give me the right to do so unless clearly defined within the conditions. It doesnt state on my FAC that I must not shoot people but by ommision it doesnt give me that right.
I shall adhere to my conditions implicitly both for the future of my own shooting and to ensure I do nothing that may make life difficult for all other shooters and I can only hope that you will do the same.
Anybody who does not adhere to their firearms conditions as imposed by there Chief Constable can have no course for complaint when the FLO pulls their ticket.
Read my posts again. I quote myself as follows:-
“with good justification the FLO would pull your ticket, after all if you can not be trusted to obey your FAC conditions you would likely have that cavalier attitude to Law in general.”
“Not that I advocate anybody breaking the conditions on your FAC, if the conditions are unduly restrictive make a constructive request to your FLO to have them changed, only if you are trying to bull**** him will you have trouble getting them lifted.”
I expected better from you to start questioning my own integrity, and to suggesting that I would break the conditions on my own FAC is what I might expect of others but not yourself.
I though this was a theoretical discussion?
I would be interested to see in writing and what the penalties would be for shooting a Fox with a deer rifle for example, or a case that was brought to court and the firearms user was fined or sent to prison for doing so.
For the record I have permission to shoot Deer or vermin with any of my centre fire rifles, it is also a “open ticket” so for me this is a theoretical discussion.
At present I am negotiating to have my moderated 308 for deer and fox seperatly so I can go lamping. My argument is that I can shoot fox until 1 hour after sunset then it becomes illegal until one hour before sunrise. At present I can shoot fox while deerstalking with my 7mm, 308 and 375 H+H.
Possibly the calibre becomes too lethal and possessed by evil demons once the last rays of sunlight cease to shine on shine on it. Return of the wererifle.
I wonder what happens if I shoot silver bullets through it???
I am sorry if you feel my wording questioned your integrity. It certainly wasn't intended - I could equally as well have said "I expect" as "I hope".
Without the facility of an edit button whatever we write on this forum cannot be altered should we on re reading it feel the point could have been better made. I shall try to ensure my wording is not so ambiguous in future as to give cause for offence.
In respect of the subject matter of your post.............
I consider the 'Conditions' as an extension of the Firearms Acts and therefore a requirement in law. Since there is no facility to appeal against Conditions they will stand unless as you suggest they can be altered by agreement. Further if the certificate is revoked because of a breach of conditions there is again no appeal procedures against the decision and your FAC is lost forever. One just could not afford the consequences of shooting a Fox with your Deer Rifle if the conditions did not allow it.
In respect of species coverage one needs to be careful that the wording isn't 'localized or generalized in a way that can give rise to unexpected exclusions. For instance i do not consider Fox as Vermin. In law they are 'small mammals' and rabbit too are not vermin but 'Ground Game'.
These anomalies around the country as to what is and what isn't covered by Vermin will hopefully gradually disappear as more Constabularies use the new Computer and the wording that the software includes being specifically Ground Game and Fox.