Allowing a land owner to shoot my rifle?

deeangeo

Well-Known Member
My certificate allows me to zero on land over which I have permission to shoot.

So Mr landowner has given me permission and would like to have a few shots with my rifle while I'm zeroing/practising on his land.
What is the current law in allowing him to do so under my direct supervision?
Can anyone advise please?
Cheers,
 
Not sure what the rules are Si?

6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a
person to borrow a rifle from the occupier
of private premises and to use it on those
premises in the presence of either the
occupier or their servant without holding a
firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It
should be noted that this gives slightly more
flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than
is permissible with the use of a shot gun
as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the
borrowed rifle can also be used in the
presence of the servant of the occupier.
However, the occupier and/or their servant
must hold a firearm certificate in respect of
the firearm being used, and the borrower,
who must be accompanied by the certificate
holder (whether it is the occupier or their
servant), must comply with the conditions
of the certificate. These may include a
safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,
territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the
1968 Act defines “premises” as including any
land. The effect of the provision is to allow
a person visiting a private estate to borrow
and use a rifle without a certificate. The
exemption does not extend to persons under
the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.
There is no notification required on the
loan of a firearm under these circumstances.
A borrowed rifle should not be specifically
identified as such on a “keeper’s” or
“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term
“in the presence of” is not defined in law
but is generally interpreted as being within
sight and earshot.
 
I haven't needed to think about or use these rules/laws for years and would just like to check.
The rules you kindly posted Si aren't specific to my question.

I shoot my rifles with no problem on land where I have permission. I may do so as my 'conditions' permit this.

I was asked by a landowner where I shoot & who has an FAC but only for .22LR, if he could have a go with my .25-06 rifle on his land. Unthinkingly I agreed to an arrangement for next weekend.

But, I don't know what current law in allowing him to use my rifle is and want to check before allowing this to proceed.
May I allow him to shoot my rifle, in my presence and under my supervision, on his land?
Cheers.
 
6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a
person to borrow a rifle from the occupier
of private premises and to use it on those
premises in the presence of either the
occupier or their servant without holding a
firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It
should be noted that this gives slightly more
flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than
is permissible with the use of a shot gun
as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the
borrowed rifle can also be used in the
presence of the servant of the occupier.
However, the occupier and/or their servant
must hold a firearm certificate in respect of
the firearm being used, and the borrower,
who must be accompanied by the certificate
holder (whether it is the occupier or their
servant), must comply with the conditions
of the certificate. These may include a
safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,
territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the
1968 Act defines “premises” as including any
land. The effect of the provision is to allow
a person visiting a private estate to borrow
and use a rifle without a certificate. The
exemption does not extend to persons under
the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.
There is no notification required on the
loan of a firearm under these circumstances.
A borrowed rifle should not be specifically
identified as such on a “keeper’s” or
“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term
“in the presence of” is not defined in law
but is generally interpreted as being within
sight and earshot.

Doesn't quite, really cover our Original Poster's circumstances though, does it.

He could lawfully let anyone use his rifle "in his presence"... not supervision, presence... an imprecise thing not entirely defined in law, I believe. Provided there were no circumstances militating against this.

In the circumstances described, I (as a land-owner and shooter myself) would advise;
Get your permission in writing first.
Only let the owner use your rifle if you feel he is safe to do so and will take "supervision" from you... and keep him in your "presence"

Do not let him use your rifle if you think he is unsafe or unfit to do so. Maybe ask him if there is anything in his past that might cause the Police to take exception to him "having a shot".

Other than that just be safe and enjoy bringing a potential newbie into the sport but beware, he may not need anyone else to shoot his ground in future, if he gets hooked :D

ps. The above also assumes that you are engaged in shooting "practise" not competitive taget shooting and.. if you should ever move on to live game, that the owner does actually hold the sporting rights over the land in question.
 
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No problem with the farmer here, he owns the land & has FAC for .22LR for 20+ years.
He just wants to have a few goes on his land with my rifle occasionally...I have no problem with conditions on my FAC - for 'me', - just don't remember the law in allowing another user (him) in my presence.
Yes, this is 'practise/zeroing'.
Cheers
 
The law only generalises on this particular subject.... it would be impossible to cover every scenario individually.

Forget the fact that the person wishing to use your rifle is the landowner, you are the FAC holder and you are for the purpose of the exercise "the servant" of the landowner. Under your supervision he can legally use your rifle under the conditions stated on your certificate.
 
I agree Si, the fact that he is the landowner is irrelevant. The "estate condition" is entirely relevant. There's no reason to get the permission in writing, after all, if the land owner is there with you, that indicates his agreement.

Legally there is no problem. His holding an FAC helps to assure you that he's not a "prohibited person" for the purposes of the firearms acts.
 
With respect, my points are being conflated and misunderstood by Si and M_H. My advice is sound and a written permission before using or allowing anyone else to use your gun on land belonging to another is just good prudent, common sense. You really don't want to be arguing about such things later, if something, heaven forbid, has gone wrong and "proofs" are being required of you. Your alternative is to take an unimpeachable witness along... and do they really exist?... get the written permish and then take care.
 
Tamus, I agree, I won't shoot ANY land without a written permission. My point was that it's not a necessity, although it is a logical and prudent step.

My point was that, other than the permission aspect, the fact that the person availing themselves of the estate condition is the land owner is entirely irrelevant. The holding of an FAC is also irrelevant if the weapon to be fired isn't named on the FAC. However, the fact that he holds an FAC implies that he is not someone the police would object to having access to a firearm, and the fact he has safely held an FAC for 20 years suggests he knows a little about weapons handling. Of course a 25-06 is a very different animal to a .22LR, and as such the OP should take all the usual precautions, but I don't think he needs to be unduly worried.

The original question was about the law, and there is nothing in law that is likely to trip up the OP.
 
Thanks a lot for your input on this matter guys. I appreciate the time you've taken to answer the question.
Whilst permission may be inherrently granted by the landowner being present, I shall take the trouble to generate a document for his signature to keep matters clear.
Cheers, :tiphat:
 
My understanding is so long as your present when the farmer uses your rifle there should be no problem !
 
only question I can ask is of the land and is it cleared for that calibre?
technically your FAC conditions are not being taken advantage of as it is not you shooting, so even if you have an open certificate is he in breach of any potential restriction on calibre use? highly unlikely and to be perfectly honest if it is his land and you trust the guy then I dont see a problem.
 
Bewsher, the estate condition allows use of an FAC weapon, under the same conditions as the holders FAC. Any other conditions are irrelevant, the restrictions applied are any that are on the owner of the rifles FAC.
 
only question I can ask is of the land and is it cleared for that calibre?
technically your FAC conditions are not being taken advantage of as it is not you shooting, so even if you have an open certificate is he in breach of any potential restriction on calibre use? highly unlikely and to be perfectly honest if it is his land and you trust the guy then I dont see a problem.

I don't think that is totally correct. Conditions, or the lack of, on a holders FAC are also applicable to the person borrowing the firearm.

Ch 16.16 HO Guidance says in part:

"the borrower,
who must be accompanied by the certificate
holder (whether it is the occupier or their
servant), must comply with the conditions
of the certificate. These may include a
safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,
territorial restrictions."

If it is an open cert then it's irrelevant if the land has been cleared/inspected. The only 'restriction' would be regarding land over which the holder has authority to shoot - which is a given in this case.
 
Ok, I have to confess my given opinion has been giving me something to consider all afternoon.

So, as ever, I've taken some advice.

In short my reply was considered correct insofar as it is a reasonable and supportable opinion. The letter of permission is particularly important though. It would be very easy to commit the offence of "possessing a firearm" without either the appropriate FAC or qualifying under the "estate rifle" clause if you don't establish "occupancy". The permission letter should satisfy that requirement. Additional qualifying considerations would include that Deeangeo's FAC conditions are adhered to and that the shooter is more than 17 years of age, which I omitted to mention earlier.

Deeangeo must become a de facto "occupier", not necessarily the ONLY occupier, the letter of permission implies such status. He may then lend his rifle to someone who does not hold a certificate for his rifle, using the estate rifle exemption.

Other opinions may exist.
 
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FAC Detail.jpg
Just for interest, if conditions on an FAC are worded as illustrated, then the land doesn't have to have been checked/authorised by any constabulary prior use for shooting.
Correct or not?
Cheers,
 
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