shooting rights

ndt man

Well-Known Member
hi the estate that i stalk on has a large plantation of christmas trees and the deer keep getting in and doing damage to the trees. the trees are a joint venture with another estate but the problem is that the previous owners sold the sporting rights .i have a letter from the from the other estates manager telling me to shoot any deer found in the plantation. i went to see the owners of the sporting rights over this matter but i was refused permmision to shoot any deer in the plantation as the owners son was going to control the deer which he has not done. and every time the estate manager sees any deer he gets on the phone to me and wants me down ther now how do i stand on this issue and what are the implications of being on the land gun in hand. ?
 
It might be worthwhile checking on the actual wording of the reserved 'Sporting Rights'.

Often they will only cover game - deer are not game and therefore it is possible that they may not be included.

Should add that if you do find that you are legal to take the deer, ensure that you have full written authority from the land owner(s) and the forestry interests. Maybe even get them to write to the sporting rights holding and inform him of the (lawful) steps they are taking to protect their investment.
 
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I think we might need to tread carefully in classifying deer along with 'pests' or 'vermin'. In England & Wales the laws that allow landowners to overide sporting rights and control pests and vermin do not AFAIK include deer - Ground Game Acts of 1880 and 1906, Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, General Licences - I'll stand to be corrected if I've missed something, (maybe a Notice under the Agriculture Act 1947? But I believe this may be more about out of season shooting as per S.7 Deer Act?). Do you have any further references?

EDIT: I suspect that S.7 Deer Act might actually give a way in as it specifies:

Damage by deer. [s.7 Deer Act]
On any cultivated land, pasture or enclosed
woodland, deer may be shot during the close season
and a shotgun can be used in certain circumstances
[see below] in order to prevent damage. This action
may be taken by the occupier of the land in person
and with his written permission by:


Any member of the occupier’s household
normally resident on the land;

Any person in ordinary service of the occupier
of the land;


Any person having the right to take or kill deer
on the land;


Any person acting with written authority of a
person having that right.

Subject to that person having:
Reasonable grounds for believing that deer of
the same species were causing or had caused
damage to crops, vegetables, fruit, growing
timber or any other form of property on the
land and;

further damage was likely to be caused and
was likely to be serious;

The action was necessary to prevent any such damage


Depends if the OP can satisfy the criteria of being in the service of the occupier. If not, then it again comes back to who has the 'right' to take the deer doesn't it?
 
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Part 1 bills party 2 for the damage they are not allowing to be stopped.. Party 2 will soon get with the programme,
 
Hi ndt
you might want to try contacting "legaleagle@marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk>
Very very helpful.
 
They are the owner of the sporting rights and not the land itself so you can be there with a gun so long as you have the land owners permission.

Sound like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, if you don't do as the estate managers and land owners ask will they replace you with some one who will? If it was me and I had written permission from the land owner I would be happy too as you are preventing damage to crop. Maybe when they sold the sporting rights there is something in there a clause for instance where for the purposes of crop protection the landowner can get some one in too shoot? I know scottish law allows land occupiers (not necessarily owners) to shoot deer for crop protection regarless of land owners or holders of sporting rights.

Why don't you give BASC a quick call... Wait wait I'll go get my tin hat...
 
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Some good advice from evreybody above.

I think that as well as having written permission clearly stated with ur name, the estates/foresters should contact the other party and tell him to get finger out or they will be sending u in. In a lot off stalking leases i think it is commom to have a damages clause to be able to be charged for damage to the crop (trees) as well as a fee for actually contoling the deer, so in theory they could charge for ur time (watch that doesn't invalidate ur ins)

I would also contact ur org (basc, sga ,ngo etc) and get a more informed decision ( no offence to anyone above:)) and possibly even speak to ur flo/wildlife crime police boy and explain the situation before u even pull the trigger so they are aware of any possible conflict.

Finally for me personally i never like to step on folks toes or upset people as generaly a small community us shooters, so it might make a difference if the sporting rights holders were local decent folk, but at the same time u get it in the neck frae the forrester and plenty off folk will jist get intae them with no second thoughts. Lke some some said a rock and a hard place, but make sure u cover ur own ar*e legally
 
I'm a bit puzzled with this

hi the estate that i stalk on has a large plantation of christmas trees and the deer keep getting in and doing damage to the trees.

If you've got permission to stalk on the estate, why cant you shoot the deer in the christmas tree plantation?

the trees are a joint venture with another estate but the problem is that the previous owners sold the sporting rights

The previous owners of what? The estate you stalk on or the other estate? What were the sporting rights which were sold?

every time the estate manager sees any deer he gets on the phone to me and wants me down ther

The manager of which estate, the one the plantation is on or the other estate?
 
Interesting situation. I certainly would be finding out what the "sporting rights" that were sold included. Having said that there is obvioulsy the right of a landowner to protect his crop from deer and section 7 lays out the criteria under which he/she can do so. Normally the person who holds the stalking rights would be classed as a tenant of the ground and would be able to shoot deer to prevent damage but if the stalking rights are included in what was sold this would not entitle you to shoot deer.
Could the landowner as Brithunter suggests bill the persons with the stalking rights for the losses. I doubt it unless there is something in the contract of the sale of the shooting/stalking rights that they have an obligation to protect crops on the ground. After all the landowner/members of his family/persons in his ordinary service can protect his crops from the deer damage.
Somebody in the landowners ordinary service with his written consent. I would think this would apply to employees of the landowner to cover such persons as gamekeepers/foresters but perhaps with a bit of bending could include you.
THe terms of what was sold as the "sporting rights" is important especially if what specifically could be shot was defined. If not I would thik that "sporting rights" would include all animals and birds shot for sport and would include deer.
 
hi the estate that i stalk on has a large plantation of christmas trees and the deer keep getting in and doing damage to the trees. the trees are a joint venture with another estate but the problem is that the previous owners sold the sporting rights .i have a letter from the from the other estates manager telling me to shoot any deer found in the plantation. i went to see the owners of the sporting rights over this matter but i was refused permmision to shoot any deer in the plantation as the owners son was going to control the deer which he has not done. and every time the estate manager sees any deer he gets on the phone to me and wants me down ther now how do i stand on this issue and what are the implications of being on the land gun in hand. ?

I am confused. You say you have a letter from the 'Other' estates manager? So not the estate the christmas trees are on and not the holder of the sporting rights ? What authority has he exactly got to write this letter. Obviously he has a financial interest in the wellbeing of the tree's but apart from looking after his investment, he doesnt have any authority to give you permission to shhot the deer in this plantation. This is a deal that needs to be struck between the owner of the land and the owner of the sporting rights.

Just my take on the wording of your original post ?

Hope you get it sorted out.

Lakey

P.S This is what happens when estates sign away the sporting rights without the correct checks and balances in place. Most estates have an overriding claus in the contract that says that if unacceptable damage takes place which isnt sorted by the sporting tenant, then they are free to get in their own stalker to sort the problems out and then forward any bills for the work to the sporting tenant. That tends to sort the problem out.

Problem stems from Estates wanting revenue and a minimum of deer present, Stalker wanting a return on his rent and lots of deer present for him to shoot at. The two are not compatible in a lot of cases.
 
Surely it's quite plain as mentioned here:-

i went to see the owners of the sporting rights over this matter but i was refused permmision to shoot any deer in the plantation as the owners son was going to control the deer which he has not done

As the son is not doing the required job then the owners of the crop the trees in this instance should be able to bill for the damages and loss of revenue.
 
Surely it's quite plain as mentioned here:-



As the son is not doing the required job then the owners of the crop the trees in this instance should be able to bill for the damages and loss of revenue.

Still doesnt explain where the letter is from and by what right the letter is written (as I said...)
 
sporting rights

hi i will explain the trees are planted on land owned by the estate that i stalk on. the trees are owned by the estate and another estate 50-50 the estate that the trees are on sold the sporting rights years ago by (previous owner) i know the other estates manager he was the one who sent me this letter it was explained to estate manager (i will call him no2) that i could not deal with the deer as we did not own the sporting rights .it was at this point that he said i will send you a letter giving you permission to shot any deer found in the plantation.
 
ndt man, I still don't understand this. From what you say, you are stalking on an estate whose previous owners sold "the sporting rights", so what exactly are you stalking? If you are stalking deer, why cant you stalk that bit with the Xmas trees?
 
I assume that the sporting rights that were sold was only for the land where the plantation is. The other estate involved in the deal cannot give you permission to shoot deer or anything else for that matter. They are not the owner/occupier of the ground.
 
It all appears to come back to whether deer are specifically included in the sporting rights sold by the estate where the trees are located - bearing in mind that deer are not 'game'. Have you got any further with establishing that?

It's quite a common situation down here in the Westcountry due to the Stag Hunting - deer hunting rights are distinct and seperate from normal sporting rights.
 
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