Legal UK Calibres for Deer

BunnyDoom

Well-Known Member
OK so I was on a BASC course recently and was told that UK law says I can use a sub .240 calibre for roe etc provided it achieves 1700 ft/lbs as the law states "a projectile of no less than .240 diameter OR achieving 1700 ft/lbs" (according to the lecturer anyway).

Has anyone heard of this or had any experience?
 
OK so I was on a BASC course recently and was told that UK law says I can use a sub .240 calibre for roe etc provided it achieves 1700 ft/lbs as the law states "a projectile of no less than .240 diameter OR achieving 1700 ft/lbs" (according to the lecturer anyway).

Has anyone heard of this or had any experience?
Surely that should read .240 diameter and 1700 ft/lbs in England & Wales - Scottish & N.Irish rules are different
 
ENGLAND & WALES

Red deer, Fallow, Sika AND Roe deer need a MINIMUM legal requirement of .240 calibre and MINIMUM muzzle energy of 1700 foot pounds.
There is NO RESTRICTION on bullet weights.

Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer need a MINIMUM legal requirement of .220 CENTREFIRE and a MINIMUM muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a MINIMUM bullet weight of not less than 50 grains.

BULLETS MUST BE either soft nosed or hollow nosed.

Regards, M
 
SCOTLAND

All species -the bullet weight must be of a MINIMUM of 100 grains and have a MINIMUM muzzle velocity of 2450 feet per second AND a MINIMUM muzzle energy of 1750 foot pounds.

Roe deer only – the bullet weight must be a MINUMUM of 50 grains and have a MIMIMUM muzzle velocity of 2450 feet per second and have a MINIMUM muzzle energy of 1000 foot pounds.

M
 
OK so I was on a BASC course recently and was told that UK law says I can use a sub .240 calibre for roe etc provided it achieves 1700 ft/lbs as the law states "a projectile of no less than .240 diameter OR achieving 1700 ft/lbs" (according to the lecturer anyway).

Has anyone heard of this or had any experience?

Answer: Yes, everyone who knows what they are doing knows what the laws are in this respect.

Sorry to be the one to tell you but... you clearly have a lot you need to learn if you are to pursue an interest in stalking.

Try getting hold of one or other of the regional deer stalking "best practice" guides, as appropriate to where you wish to stalk. Or possibly better still get in contact with a reputable stalking agent/stalker and be guided by them.
 
Thanks all, though I know the law around this; my query was why I was being told something different on a BASC course by a professional - the lecturer maintained that the ACTUAL law stated "or" rather than "and"?

Apparently it's mis-quoted on a lot of "best practice guides" and websites - I shoot .243 so it doesn't really affect me, I just thought this was an interesting point as theoretically a few normal foxing calibres would be legal for UK deer if this was in fact the case (there being no calibre restrictions providing you achieve a minumum of 1700ft/lbs)?

Districts for different laws are UK&Wales, Scotland, and N.ireland - I'm well aware of all 3 having their differences - but the UK is where normally shoot so thought this was an interesting topic... :)

Incidentally I'm not a fan of using .243 on reds, especially at 150+ as I think something less wind-driven like a .308 is much more suitable... however a 100gn 243 is legal. Thoughts anyone? (and before anyone starts abusing my accuracy I do shoot my .243 out to 600 at targets so I've no problem hitting things, just feel long-shots with lighter calibres are a little irresponsible)
 
Answer: Yes, everyone who knows what they are doing knows what the laws are in this respect.

Sorry to be the one to tell you but... you clearly have a lot you need to learn if you are to pursue an interest in stalking.

Try getting hold of one or other of the regional deer stalking "best practice" guides, as appropriate to where you wish to stalk. Or possibly better still get in contact with a reputable stalking agent/stalker and be guided by them.

OK Tamus, this may rub you up the wrong way but that's not my intention - just wanted to demonstrate that this is not as clear cut as you may think and I do not "have a lot to learn": check out page 16 of the National Trusts Guideline on Deer Legal calibres: http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-deer01.pdf - there is definately an "or" and this is the same table that Natural England quotes (who issue most licences surrounding deer).
 
Thanks all, though I know the law around this; my query was why I was being told something different on a BASC course by a professional - the lecturer maintained that the ACTUAL law stated "or" rather than "and"?

Apparently it's mis-quoted on a lot of "best practice guides" and websites - I shoot .243 so it doesn't really affect me, I just thought this was an interesting point as theoretically a few normal foxing calibres would be legal for UK deer if this was in fact the case (there being no calibre restrictions providing you achieve a minumum of 1700ft/lbs)?

My first thought was that your course lecturer was spouting crap, however..................................

Going to the actual legislation and having a look at the wording of the Deer Act 1997 and in Schedule 2 - Prohibited Firearms and Weapons we find the following:

"Any rifle having a calibre of less than .240 inches or a muzzle energy of less than 2,305 joules (1,700 foot pounds)."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/54/schedule/2

Now this is a different way of stating what you can use. But it still says sub .240 is out - so the lecturer was wrong and had maybe read the above and misunderstood it. Ditto for the national Trust guidance - it must be minimums of .240in and 1,700ft/lb otherwise it falls into the classification of prohibited weapon in the legislation quoted above.

Districts for different laws are UK&Wales, Scotland, and N.ireland - I'm well aware of all 3 having their differences - but the UK is where normally shoot so thought this was an interesting topic... :)

Bunnydoom, you need to sort out your terminology. It's not UK&Wales, it's England & Wales. And if the UK is where you shoot then that includes Scotland, N.Ireland, England & Wales. It's important to be specific because of the different laws applying in the different regions, and the fact that people from all over the UK are on this forum and will possibly assume you are asking about how they apply to their location and not somewhere else.
 
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My first thought was that your course lecturer was spouting crap, however..................................

Going to the actual legislation and having a look at the actual wording of the Deer Act 1997 and in Schedule 2 - Prohibited Firearms and Weapons we find the following:

"Any rifle having a calibre of less than .240 inches or a muzzle energy of less than 2,305 joules (1,700 foot pounds)."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/54/schedule/2

Now this is a different way of stating what you can use. But it still says sub .240 is out - so the lecturer was wrong.

Umm, was he actually wrong?

I think the point is, he was messing with you a bit. Name a proprietry cartridge that uses projectiles of less than .240", suitable for deer stalking anywhere in the UK, that is loaded and available over the counter, which generates a muzzle energy of greater than 1,700 ft pounds at the muzzle of an ordinarily available sporting rifle.

The .22 accelerators can, but what calibre are they really?

ps. I rarely get rubbed the wrong way, and it'll only be a fair skinned lovely of the opposite that gets the chance... Mrs. Tamus I mean
 
Right you are Orion - sorry I meant England & Wales.

Thanks for your reply and further research - The lecturer was Peter Pursglove who consults for BASC so I was pretty confident in what he was saying... his first thoughts were that most licensing forces and shooting organisations quote eachother literature rather than looking at the actual legislation. The misconception has therefore been mutiplied and continued to be the general thought on legal calibres for Deer in England and Wales.
 
Umm, was he actually wrong?

I think the point is, he was messing with you a bit. Name a proprietry cartridge that uses projectiles of less than .240", suitable for deer stalking anywhere in the UK, that is loaded and available over the counter, which generates a muzzle energy of greater than 1,700 ft pounds at the muzzle of an ordinarily available sporting rifle.

The .22 accelerators can, but what calibre are they really?

No he wasn't wrong was he?

Valid point Tamus - it is a little self-regulating, but still possible - he did go on to list a few calibres that were available on order but I haven't got the list to hand. You're right though I can't think of any that my RFD normally stocks.

This is all just something I thought was an interesting topic as I'm not about to start messing around with what I use (i'm happy with my chosen calibre) - I just wanted to see if anyone else had heard of this, and it would seem Orion's research has pointed out that there does seem to be a pretty controversial set of wording regarding the law around legal calibres in England and Wales. Scottish law leaves no room for confusion so why isn't this the case with English law?
 
No he wasn't wrong was he?

Valid point Tamus - it is a little self-regulating, but still possible - he did go on to list a few calibres that were available on order but I haven't got the list to hand. You're right though I can't think of any that my RFD normally stocks.

This is all just something I thought was an interesting topic as I'm not about to start messing around with what I use (i'm happy with my chosen calibre) - I just wanted to see if anyone else had heard of this, and it would seem Orion's research has pointed out that there does seem to be a pretty controversial set of wording regarding the law around legal calibres in England and Wales. Scottish law leaves no room for confusion so why isn't this the case with English law?

I'll take that last as being just a "rhetorical" question... what with it being the season of good will and all...:rofl:
 
Errm, I'm not sure if you're both agreeing with the lecturer's proposal that in England & Wales you can use a calibre of less than .240 on roe - accelerator rounds excluded ;), or mine (and the legislation's) that you can't! :confused:

For clarity - the or that seems to have been hit on has a completely different meaning when it is used negatively and applied to what is prohibited - as it is in the Schedule to the 1997 Act. The NT etc. have got it wrong by using it in a positive manner and they should edit it - BASC have it right on their own info http://www.basc.org.uk/en/codes-of-practice/deer-stalking.cfm

Try testing it by applying any given round and see if it meets either of the 'or' minimums.
 
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I'll take that last as being just a "rhetorical" question... what with it being the season of good will and all...:rofl:

HAHAHA! It certainly was mate, though I'm sure you're full of compliments about us English we'd probably best stay off that subject! :D

I'll try and dig up the calibre info - not really that important but does seem that most people are unaware of the "or" element, I definitely was until recently!
 
Errm, I'm not sure if you're both agreeing with the lecturer's proposal that in England & Wales you can use a calibre of less than .240 on roe - accelerator rounds excluded ;), or mine (and the legislation's) that you can't! :confused:

For clarity - the or that seems to have been hit on has a completely different meaning when it is used negatively and applied to what is prohibited. The NT etc. have got it wrong by using it in a positive manner and they should edit it - BASC have it right on their own info http://www.basc.org.uk/en/codes-of-practice/deer-stalking.cfm

Well I wasn't agreeing with you at first but now I think I do (in light of your research) - though why are BASC telling me I could use smaller than .240 if I can't? Also, BASC aren't a recognised legal authority are they so if the Deer ACT 1997 says "or" then surely that's what we should all go by?
 
Well I wasn't agreeing with you at first but now I think I do (in light of your research) - though why are BASC telling me I could use smaller than .240 if I can't? Also, BASC aren't a recognised legal authority are they so if the Deer ACT 1997 says "or" then surely that's what we should all go by?

Perhaps one of BASCs finest who wander through this forum from time to time could answer your query?

Maybe you missed the edit in my post above but try testing it by applying any given round and see if it meets either of the 'or' minimums - you'll soon see what I'm getting at and why the 'marginal' ones fall into the 'prohibited' category.
 
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