"Calibre" or "Cartridge"?

flytie

Well-Known Member
I have just had an interesting chat with my FEO about the term "calibre".

The police/Home Office are following advice from BASC apparantly in their usage of this term, in which they want you to use a specific cartridge designation ie. .222 instead of .22 centrefire when asking for a variation. What my FEO kept calling a "calibre"! I had to apply for a .222 calibre rifle.

Now the Dictionary definition of "Calibre" is that it is "The diameter of any circular section, especially the interior diameter of a tube or hollow cylinder". It is generally accepted in relation to riflesmithing that the term "calibre" is the bore of a rifle barrel prior to adding the rifling. Thus any of the .22 centrefires are 0.224" calibre.

It is a shame the body supposedly representing shooters cannot get their terminology correct, especially when advising our regulatory bodies.

It mattered not that I wanted a .22 centrefire variation, I had to specify a particular chambering. The fact that 0.224" bullet will fit down a 22-250, a .222 or a .233 et al, matters not at all to them.

I find this infuriating, I spend ages trying to learn the correct nomenclature of my sport, and yet one of the leading shooting bodies helping to advise our police cannot get this right. What hope is there for us?

I will admit that West Mercia Firearms Dept are improving rapidly under new management, seemingly they have listened to the FEO's. About time too. I have always found the FEO's to be very helpful and knowledgable people.

Confusedly, Simon

Edit, but he did allow me to have a slot for 6.5/.260". Go figure?
 
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I have always just put the calibre of the the rifle i want eg .30/.22centerfire etc on my variation as that is what they ask for on the 101 form and that is what i got back on my Fac new slots.

bob
 
It is calibre that is requested on any fac form I've had, all we can do is to politely educate the FEO's
 
It is calibre that is requested on any fac form I've had, all we can do is to politely educate the FEO's

I tried, honestly I did. While providing tea and buscuits, comfy chair etc. I asked why they used the term for bore diameter when the meant chambering and not accept the dictionary definition of calibre. I even read him the definition. I also showed him my reloading books with 0.224" diameter bullets being used in 22-250's, .223's and .222's. This I was told was wrong! They used the Home Office description which had been arrived at with the advice of BASC. "So there it is, get used to it", I was told. What they want is the description you would get quote, "if you had to ask for ammunition for your rifle in a shop". No good telling them that you reload and you will be buying 0.224" bullets.

I suppose in the near future we will have to accept "Heads" instead of bullets, and yet another term will be misused. Then headspace will obviously become the gap between the bullet and the lead-in, an engineering term, (commonly and erroniously called the leade) to the barrel from the chamber. What will happen to the original "head-spacing" of the head of the case I do not know. And I suppose the round will become known as a "bullet" because that is what they call it on the television and in the appalling films we are subjected to.

God, I feel like a grumpy git at the moment, but it does make me cross that BASC countanance this behaviour.

Simon :(
 
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I tried, honestly I did. While providing tea and buscuits, comfy chair etc. I asked why they used the term for bore diameter when the meant chambering and not accept the dictionary definition of calibre. I even read him the definition. I also showed him my reloading books with 0.242" diameter bullets being used in 22-250's, .223's and .222's. This I was told was wrong! They used the Home Office description which had been arrived at with the advice of BASC. "So there it is, get used to it", I was told. What they want is the description you would get quote, "if you had to ask for ammunition for your rifle in a shop". No good telling them that you reload and you will be buying 0.242" bullets.

I suppose in the near future we will have to accept "Heads" instead of bullets, and yet another term will be misused. Then headspace will obviously become the gap between the bullet and the lead-in, an engineering term, (commonly and erroniously called the leade) to the barrel from the chamber. What will happen to the original "head-spacing" of the head of the case I do not know. And I suppose the round will become known as a "bullet" because that is what they call it on the television and in the appalling films we are subjected to.

God, I feel like a grumpy git at the moment, but it does make me cross that BASC countanance this behaviour.

Simon :(

Luckily I carry the dyslexia gene, so I know you meant .22 4" and not .2 4 2" :D

I long since stopped trying to educate serving agents of HM Constabulary. I reckon their "powers-that-be" know full well... about nearly all the intricacies, but it suits them to give us windmills to tilt at and holes to dig for ourselves. And, by golly, reading many of the posts on SD, I think "they" all too often have exactly the effect "they" appear to intend.
 
Tamus you are, as ever, correct! I did mean to type .224" but my venting and grumpiness got the better of me, sorry ;) You understand, I know, how frustrating this can be, but you explain yourself, and type, far better than I ever can, especially when I have steam coming from my ears :p

Apologetically, Simon

Edit; I have made corrections to my previous posts as Tamus pointed out how daft I had been in making mistakes. Sorry!
 
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last variation i put in to west mercia they told me to just put 6mm and 7mm rifles....... which makes perfect sense to me.
 
I have just had an interesting chat with my FEO about the term "calibre".

The police/Home Office are following advice from BASC apparantly in their usage of this term, in which they want you to use a specific cartridge designation ie. .222 instead of .22 centrefire when asking for a variation. What my FEO kept calling a "calibre"! I had to apply for a .222 calibre rifle.

Now the Dictionary definition of "Calibre" is that it is "The diameter of any circular section, especially the interior diameter of a tube or hollow cylinder". It is generally accepted in relation to riflesmithing that the term "calibre" is the bore of a rifle barrel prior to adding the rifling. Thus any of the .22 centrefires are 0.224" calibre.

It is a shame the body supposedly representing shooters cannot get their terminology correct, especially when advising our regulatory bodies.

It mattered not that I wanted a .22 centrefire variation, I had to specify a particular chambering. The fact that 0.224" bullet will fit down a 22-250, a .222 or a .233 et al, matters not at all to them.

I find this infuriating, I spend ages trying to learn the correct nomenclature of my sport, and yet one of the leading shooting bodies helping to advise our police cannot get this right. What hope is there for us?

I will admit that West Mercia Firearms Dept are improving rapidly under new management, seemingly they have listened to the FEO's. About time too. I have always found the FEO's to be very helpful and knowledgable people.

Confusedly, Simon

Edit, but he did allow me to have a slot for 6.5/.260". Go figure?

Whilst technically you are correct regarding the bore size, I do think you may be splitting the hairs a Tad too fine on this point. Ok a 243 is actually a 6mm head in a brass case, so if you went to buy ammo for that Rifle what would you ask for? 6mm 100 grn or 243 100grn? The lets look at the 22/250 again would you ask for 22/250 50 grn bullets or .224 50grn bullets? I want to buy a 25-06 do I ask for a 25 cal and get a Roberts or a 257 wetherby mag. Not trying to be an Donkey but its a bit of a grey area. I know we are actually asking for the round we intend using when we purchase our rifle and the land we use it on is passed suitable for that particular round. After all a 6mm PPc is just that and a 243 is just that, they just use the same head.


nutty
 
Whilst technically you are correct regarding the bore size, I do think you may be splitting the hairs a Tad too fine on this point. Ok a 243 is actually a 6mm head in a brass case, so if you went to buy ammo for that Rifle what would you ask for? 6mm 100 grn or 243 100grn? The lets look at the 22/250 again would you ask for 22/250 50 grn bullets or .224 50grn bullets? I want to buy a 25-06 do I ask for a 25 cal and get a Roberts or a 257 wetherby mag. Not trying to be an Donkey but its a bit of a grey area. I know we are actually asking for the round we intend using when we purchase our rifle and the land we use it on is passed suitable for that particular round. After all a 6mm PPc is just that and a 243 is just that, they just use the same head.


nutty
Hi nutty
Idon't know if they use the same head but they do use the same bullet:D
Geordie
 
Ah Simon

But will they (West Mercia) let us have 'any other lawful quarry' yet?

Hope all is well over with you, catch up soon mate

Jonathon
 
Whilst technically you are correct regarding the bore size, I do think you may be splitting the hairs a Tad too fine on this point. Ok a 243 is actually a 6mm head in a brass case, so if you went to buy ammo for that Rifle what would you ask for? 6mm 100 grn or 243 100grn? The lets look at the 22/250 again would you ask for 22/250 50 grn bullets or .224 50grn bullets? I want to buy a 25-06 do I ask for a 25 cal and get a Roberts or a 257 wetherby mag. Not trying to be an Donkey but its a bit of a grey area. I know we are actually asking for the round we intend using when we purchase our rifle and the land we use it on is passed suitable for that particular round. After all a 6mm PPc is just that and a 243 is just that, they just use the same head.


nutty

Now who is splitting bloody hairs when buying factory ammunition your buy cartridges and as such the cartridge name is the correct thing to use. It matters not at that point what calibre because if the cartridge is asked for and given as asked then it will be correct. What weight or type of bullet is fitted into said cartridge is another matter and should be asked for which is common sense and why the Plod has trouble with such things as it does not exist with them or in them.

Just because they are too dumb to learn why should we lower ourselves to their rather base level?

Now we the shooter and client didn't write the stupid rules but we have to try and work within them. The form asks for calibre so calibre it is and a rifle chambered for the US 1906 Government cartridge is a .30 calibre. .303 is a .31 calibre and 6mm and .243 is actually a .23 calibre but don't tell Mr Plod ;).

Cartridges like the German 8mm Mauser have more than one bullet diameter as does the Russian 7.62x54R but surely it's the duty of the owner shooter to know the rifle he owns and what fits it correctly.

If I want cartridges or cases even for my 25-06 I simply ask for them by name and specify bullet weight and type for factory ammunition very simple and the way it's been done for over a century. If I wand just component bullets again I ask for the diameter, weight and style I require like Hornady 87 grain BTHP in 0.257" diameter or .25 cal again very simple.

Once again you show your minimal understanding of cartridge terms by mis using head for bullet. The head of a cartridge is where the primer pocket is and where the headstamp is marked again it's quite simple really. yet it's quite obvious you don't see as this clearly show:-

After all a 6mm PPc is just that and a 243 is just that, they just use the same head.[/QUOTE]

Oh no they don't

The 243 Winchester and 6mm PPC have different head sizes and so use different shell holders for reloading. The PPC actual head size is 0.441" and the .243 Winchester is 0.473" ;) a quick look in a loading manual would have given you those sizes.
 
They need to change the wording on our FAC's to "chambering" rather then calibre.

Ian.

Oh christ don't suggest that as it brings painful memories back of the Surrey plods checking for the Oh so dangerous 7.62x51 rifles after a certain shooting incident where the issued the FEO's with a dummy 7.62x51 round to check if it fitted. After our club treasurer watched him drop it into the muzzle of a .577 2 band Enflied and asy yep it fits then a 12 bore SxS where it dropped through onto the carpet and so on through all his rifles then after having enough of this bollox Tom showed him how a cartidge is actually chambered. The numbnuts expert from the Police had not got a flipping clue. Things have not changed really in the passing decades have they?
 
Oh christ don't suggest that as it brings painful memories back of the Surrey plods checking for the Oh so dangerous 7.62x51 rifles after a certain shooting incident where the issued the FEO's with a dummy 7.62x51 round to check if it fitted. After our club treasurer watched him drop it into the muzzle of a .577 2 band Enflied and asy yep it fits then a 12 bore SxS where it dropped through onto the carpet and so on through all his rifles then after having enough of this bollox Tom showed him how a cartidge is actually chambered. The numbnuts expert from the Police had not got a flipping clue. Things have not changed really in the passing decades have they?

Wow, and I thought some of our cops were idiots...that pretty much takes the cake.
 
Whilst technically you are correct regarding the bore size, I do think you may be splitting the hairs a Tad too fine on this point. Ok a 243 is actually a 6mm head in a brass case, so if you went to buy ammo for that Rifle what would you ask for? 6mm 100 grn or 243 100grn? The lets look at the 22/250 again would you ask for 22/250 50 grn bullets or .224 50grn bullets? I want to buy a 25-06 do I ask for a 25 cal and get a Roberts or a 257 wetherby mag. Not trying to be an Donkey but its a bit of a grey area. I know we are actually asking for the round we intend using when we purchase our rifle and the land we use it on is passed suitable for that particular round. After all a 6mm PPc is just that and a 243 is just that, they just use the same head.
nutty

I'll see your hair and split one finer. ;) The .243 bullet (note it's a bullet, not a 'head') isn't 6mm, it' 6.18mm.

The OP is correct, the Form 101 seeks calibre, not cartridge name. I had this out with the police many years ago. The police like to ask for and specify the cartridge name. This is partly to avoid any ambiguity but also to decide whether the applicant has good reason. Let us suppose someone asked for a .22 calibre rifle for shooting rabbits in a paddock. He is granted an FAC for a .22 calibre rifle, and he buys a .220 Swift. Is shooting rabbits a good reason for owning a .220 Swift? Few would think so.

Here's what I do. On the Form 101 I write, for example, .308" rifle. And in the covering letter I say something to the effect of "the .308 inch rifle will be chambered for the .308 Winchester cartridge". And there has been no problem.

-JMS
 
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this also is a problem with moderators as well. i bought a 243 rifle and was sold a .30 t8 mod for it. only when i sold the mod did i get in trouble as my ticket said i could have a .243 moderator not a .30. after turning blue in the face and explaining you cant buy .222 .223 .243 .6.5 .270 .308 etc mods they are made for upto to certain diameters i got a telling off and told they will let it go this time
 
this also is a problem with moderators as well. i bought a 243 rifle and was sold a .30 t8 mod for it. only when i sold the mod did i get in trouble as my ticket said i could have a .243 moderator not a .30. after turning blue in the face and explaining you cant buy .222 .223 .243 .6.5 .270 .308 etc mods they are made for upto to certain diameters i got a telling off and told they will let it go this time

No once again the problem is the foks who impose their wishes upon us rather than the rules and law.
 
Ah Simon

But will they (West Mercia) let us have 'any other lawful quarry' yet?

Hope all is well over with you, catch up soon mate

Jonathon

Jonathon, I had an intersting time with Mark the FEO who deals with my enquiries and problems. There have been changes in the department. The former Chief Firearms Officer has gone :)

And the way the department is being operated has been the result of consulting the FEO's and workforce involved. I am told that AOLQ should be on its way as they have realised it is a help in speeding up the processing of FAC renewals!

Hope you are ok too my man!

Simon
 
The OP is correct, the Form 101 seeks calibre, not cartridge name. I had this out with the police many years ago. The police like to ask for and specify the cartridge name.

I think this is one case where the police are actually more or less following the HO Guidance:

10.5 Applicants are required to enter the
calibre and type of firearm(s) to be purchased
or acquired. The information will need to be
specific and not cover a range of calibres or
a generic group such as .22 CF (centrefire).


So although Form 101 states that the calibre should entered the Guidance leans towards more specific information - cartridge designation or name - being required.
 
I think this is one case where the police are actually more or less following the HO Guidance:

10.5 Applicants are required to enter the
calibre and type of firearm(s) to be purchased
or acquired. The information will need to be
specific and not cover a range of calibres or
a generic group such as .22 CF (centrefire).


So although Form 101 states that the calibre should entered the Guidance leans towards more specific information - cartridge designation or name - being required.

Orion, so should I have asked for a .224" then? Because that is the calibre I will own. Or should the guidance/regulations be changed so that they get the information they actually require, what the rifle is, will be, chambered for? Not the calibre!

My whole point is that the form of information the police/FEO's are told to ask for is flawed, and this has been done with the assisstance of those awfully nice people at BASC, who have a firearms department, who you would think would know the correct terminology/nomenclature for the information that the police require:old:

All they need to do is open a dictionary or ask a riflesmith.

Simon

Edit: What really annoyed me was when I was told by the FEO that the dictionary definition and the term as used by riflesmiths is and I quote, "Wrong". "What the Home Office writes is correct as they make the law". It fair floored me with the arrogance of the statement.

S.
 
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