First deer calibre question

MONGOOSE

Well-Known Member
Hi guys i want to put in for a deer calibre for paid stalking not to use on my cleard land but for paid stalks do you think i would be able to get a 6.5x55 on a first application? Also im guessing they will put an on whilst acompanied with an experienced stalker clause in, but if i pass my dsc1 and have a number of stalks under my belt would they then lift the restriction and if so roughly how long would this take?, ive only had my fac for around 6 months have 17,22,222 on my ticket on closed cert and there are no deer on my land i have cleared any help most appreciated
 
If you have 'good reason' for a deer-shooting rifle, then you should decide what calibre best suits your likely requirements with respect to species and terrain/range and apply for that calibre. Be prepared politely to assert your view on this, should the FEO not agree for whatever reason with your choice.

If you are offered some kind of 'accompanied' restriction, take this as an opportunity to show the FEO how well you understand the relationship between the ballistics of your current rifles, of your choice of deer rifle, and the safety of the public. Then perhaps ask him to explain in that context how the 'accompanied' condition will enhance the safety of the public.
 
If you do find yourself stuck with the accompanied condition, there is no standard timeframe to get it removed. It's a case of showing your FEO that you have gained the relevant experience so the more stalks you get in, the better.
It took 5 months and letters from 3 different people who had accompanied me on stalks to get mine lifted, I even sent photos and receipts for stalks that I had been on prior to applying for a deer rifle.
You may have to provide booking confirmation if you are intending only to do paid stalking.

BTW... There are better calibres
 
There are certainly different calibres - we don't even know what sort of stalking he wants it for yet!

Whether ot not he loads his own might also affect the choice....

Thanks for the info guys I would like to stalk all over the uk for all species not running before I can walk though I have been told that a 243 is sutable for a red stag but only just so though I would go up a calibre and have read good things about the Swede and have been told it is usually one of the calibres fao will accept for a first grant, I would also load my own have a friend who is into it big time so no worries there, what would you recommend guys this being a grant of a deer calibre and all cheers
 
You have Red locally so evidencing need for a swede shouldn't be difficult. If you are only doing paid stalking would an accompanied condition be too onerous? I would avoid it if you can though. Watch out you don't get had over as well- I did. The wanted me to be mentored (I've had FAC a long time but only .22LR but fired 100s of 1000s of rounds in the mob) for deer which I said I couldn't achieve so they said if I did DSC1 they would remove it. They did- kind of, they've now restricted me to high seats or an "elevated" position if unaccompanied (I'll carry a stool!) The same rifle; a .243, is also approved for fox without condition!
 
Ask 10 stalkers and you'll get maybe 5 or 6 different answers

Me personally, I'd go with .270

What would be your reasons for going with the .270 over the swede mate is there something obvious between the calibres that im missing in general? thanks mate
 
What would be your reasons for going with the .270 over the swede mate is there something obvious between the calibres that im missing in general? thanks mate

This is not the right place on the site to discuss this, do a search in the firearms/ ammo’ section, it has been debated to death over and over again, please don’t start another thread on it:banghead:, suffice to say some people love it, others think it is the biggest pile of steaming ****, some see it as an adequate deer calibre in comparison with others.

As said if you are shooting reds as an guest, especially stags or maybe the chance of boar and want something bigger then don’t let the FLO push you into something smaller, remind him that the minimum for red stags on FC land and for night shooting used to be a 270, the deer have not got any smaller. If you want a 6.5X55 rather than have picked it because you think something bigger would be pushing your luck then fine buy a rifle in that calibre.


ATB



Tahr
 
So summarise Thar (if I may)
Don't second-guess what the FEO might want you to want.
You are the one with the good reason to possess a deer rifle, so you need to take advice from assorted sources and pick the calibre that best fits your needs. Then you'll need to have your sensible and coherently-argued reason for that choice ready in case the FEO has some reason to want you to have something different.
 
I was only asking in here because of the first application not with the regard of which calibre is best i have done a search but could not find the answer to my question sorry
 
So summarise Thar (if I may)
Don't second-guess what the FEO might want you to want.
You are the one with the good reason to possess a deer rifle, so you need to take advice from assorted sources and pick the calibre that best fits your needs. Then you'll need to have your sensible and coherently-argued reason for that choice ready in case the FEO has some reason to want you to have something different.

Thanks for that Dalua

Sorry Mongoose I wasn’t referring to whether you should ask for a 6.5X55 for a first deer rifle rather to why you should ask for this calibre over another one IE the 270 as suggested.

ATB

Tahr
 
It might also be useful to read the HO guidance, which as far as I'm aware make no mention of granting only less-powerful deer calibres as a first deer rifle, but does list all the calibres considered acceptable for rifles for which the 'good reason' is deer.
Nor is there any mention of 'accompanied' or 'mentoring' conditions.

It is pertinent also that you have .22 Centrefire expereince in the field.
 
It might also be useful to read the HO guidance

Sound advice. :thumb:

which as far as I'm aware make no mention of granting only less-powerful deer calibres as a first deer rifle,

Correct, despite what some FEOs might like to think they can 'allow'.

but does list all the calibres considered acceptable for rifles for which the 'good reason' is deer.

Not all - the listing is neither exhaustive nor prescriptive:

13.7 With the exception of the limits set by
the Deer Acts and similar legislation, the
suggested calibres for different quarry species
are intended as examples of the typical range
of calibres used rather than prescriptive
limits.

13.15 Most rifle cartridges were designed for
specific purposes but may be suitable for a
range of other quarry. The table on page 77
provides guidance on whether, for the
purposes of establishing “good reason”, a
particular calibre is suitable for shooting
certain quarry..........................

It should
be noted that the following list of calibres is
not exhaustive but will serve as a useful
guide.


Nor is there any mention of 'accompanied' or 'mentoring' conditions.

Certainly isn't.
 
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Thanks for the info guys I would like to stalk all over the uk for all species not running before I can walk though I have been told that a 243 is sutable for a red stag but only just so though I would go up a calibre and have read good things about the Swede and have been told it is usually one of the calibres fao will accept for a first grant, I would also load my own have a friend who is into it big time so no worries there, what would you recommend guys this being a grant of a deer calibre and all cheers

Several points. Firstly, the .243 is certainly capable of killing a stag (and larger animals) but in my opinion it isn't ideal for a novice to use on stags. I say that as someone who has a 243 (two in fact) and has shot all manner of game with them.

Secondly, the firearms licensing staff exist to provide a service to the public, not to dictate how we live our lives. A sensible working relationship is essential but don't be in fear of them.

Thirdly, any of the medium bore calibres are suitable for all species in the UK. The 6.5x55 is a mild recoiling cartridge as is the 260 Remington (though I suspect that cartridge will die soon). The 7-08 is also mild recoiling and the .308 perhaps less so. The trajectory of one may be better than another but its wind drift will be worse. The 30-06 is the father of the .308, and has a significant advantage over the .308 - everything the .308 can do the 30-06 can do better and I speak as someone who has both. The .270 is a faux 7mm, it can fire up to a 150gr bullet faster, louder and with more recoil than the 7-08 but nothing heavier than 150gr. The 7mm Rem Mag burns a lot of powder in outperforming the .270 but is a fine longer range cartridge (it's not a woodland cartridge in my opinion). Any of these cartridges is suitable for all deer (and pig) in this country.

Which to select is a matter of choice as they will all deliver broadly the same ballistics and broadly the same effect on game - kill it swiftly. (We once shot 16 red hinds, four each, with two .243s, one .30-06 and one 7-08 using different bullets in the .243s. Looking at the carcasses, no one would have been able to say which had been shot with which rifle or which bullet.) From a public safety perspective, there is nothing to chose between them since we do not shoot towards people and a person hit with a bullet from any of these cartridges would be in serious trouble.

Many stalkers have their own favourites and, as with cars or anything else, people tend to justify their own choices by arguing the merits of what they own. Don't be swayed by anyone who says "get a such-and-such, I've got one and it's great". The simple fact is that anything from a .243 upwards will kill any species in the UK but only if you put the bullet in the right place. Put the bullet in the wrong place and you have a problem. Earlier this year, I shot a running warthog with a .375H&H. It hit him in the belly and exited. A second shot ripped a massive wound across the top of the hip breaking bone but didn't anchor him, it didn't even slow him down. The pig didn't collapse until it had run over 2km and crossed a river in spate (the trackers managed to follow it.) Even then, the pig needed a coup de grace. So calibre and bullet weight count for nothing if put in the wrong place.

One small point on the 6.5x55. It needs a slightly longer action than the .308 class of cartridges (the .243, .260, 7-08 are all derived from the .308 Win and use a 'medium' length action). The slightly longer action may limit your choice of scopes or how it is mounted. The tube length determines how the scope can be mounted and the eye relief. This is not to put you off the 6.5x55, just ensure your do your homework when buying your scope.

For the record, if you are to shoot red stags, I would recommend at least a 6.5mm cartridge. As an all round large game cartridge, for woodland and hill, I would recommend the 7-08. It's accurate (as are others), fairly flat shooting, light recoiling, and can fire a wide range of bullet weights though the 140gr will work on everything. What I suggest you do is try to test fire a variety of rifles in the cartridge you fancy. Some rifles firing the same cartridge will feel different depending on stock shape. For example, I found that a wooden stocked Sako M591 in .308 was comfortable and recoil acceptable but the lightweight Parker-Hale 'Scout' kicked like the proverbial mule.

Do your home work. Decide on what you want, and put in an application for it. Just in case your local FEO doesn't know his oinions, have the ballistics charts for alternative cartridges to hand so you can demonstrate that what you are asking for isn't anything exceptional.

-JMS
 
+1 on what JMS906 has said - a superb explanation.

I have recently been out with one of the kind folks on here to try his 7mm08 as it was the calibre I was most interested in trying and can say having tried that, a .243 and a .308 (both at Bisley) I have settled on the 7mm08 as my calibre of choice.

As JMS906 says, try them out, decide what is right for you and then read up all relevant information about the calibre and the HO guidelines so you are ready for the FEO.
 
Agreed! Excellent essay from JMS.

I would only add that if you do not reload, the 'flexibity' of your choice will be limited to what you can buy.

In this regard, common calibres (.270, .308) are a good deal more 'flexible' than others (7mm-08, 6.5x55).
 
Thanks for all your replies guys most helpful indeed, if my feo come round and wants to impose mentoring conditions insisting on dsc1 and only when accompanied etc what do I do or say to said feo, I will do my dsc1 by the start of next season but that's still not the point I and others don't like to be held to ransom do we,

I don't however have to much of a problem with them saying I have to be accompanied at first whilst stalking as I'm sure I would need to but that's still not the point is it? Thanks again guys
 
Depends on how far you are willing to go with it. Keep it businesslike and polite and if there is any point that you either disagree about or consider that it is unreasonable then say so. Ask for the reason(s) why they would be looking to impose any proposed conditions and the justification for them - must be linked to public safety and no other reasons such as animal welfare etc. as that is beyond the remit of Firearms Licensing.

If you cannot come to an agreement and they refuse to budge and you believe that you have a case, then it could be construed as constructive refusal to issue a certificate. This is important as you can appeal against refusal to grant and they will thereafter have to give reasons, but you cannot appeal against conditions once they have been imposed and you have been issued with the FAC.

Read up on the Guidance and Fact Sheets on the BASC website. Good luck with it.
 
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