Thermal Imaging for use in Stalking

pbaxter

Member
I dont know if anyone read the recent article in Sporting Rifle in regard to using thermal imaging cameras in deer management. I wonder if anyone had any views on the use of these devices in deer stalking. I am a relative novice to stalking and my first thought was that this kind of technology would make things too easy and therefore potentially damage the experience and skills that are gained from doing things the proper way. However on further thought I feel that rather than damage the experience it could in fact enhance it given that the technology would allow you to use your time much more effectively and not waste time in high seats, hides and laid up waiting for the deer that never comes. If the technology works and you can in fact more easily locate deer you might still get to pick up the traditional skills as you would potentially still need to stalk into the deer? Does anyone have any strong opinions or thoughts on this ?

If anyone would like to read the article I can send a link to it
 
I can understand how you came to the thinking that it would save time by not having to sitting in high seat what have you, but think of everything your missing out on?!? The other wildlife, the serenity, the peace and quiet! Not to mention the required patence which will weed out some of the people who arn't best suited to the sport.

If you are talking about using thermal imagine then are you on about stalking at night time?

Anyway the use of NV etc is illegal on deer, I don't think this includes spoting devices though but I await correction.

Anyway stalking is far more than putting the cross hairs on a deer and pulling the trigger, it's about getting out there in the thick off it.

I can see no place for a thermal imagining tool in the average stalkers tool box, contractors maybe.
 
I dont disagree with anything you have said. It is all about being out there in the thick of it - many times I have been out and not seen deer but enjoyed the experience just as much (well, almost) as coming home with something !

........I was curious to see is anyone thinks there is value in it. Also, my understanding is that you can use these binocular thermal cameras in daylight too but I stand to be corrected if that is wrong ? - and of course I have no idea how effective they might be in daylight.
 
They can be used in daylight hrs..its image intensifiers ie Nightvision that is only used for night.
 
If you are talking about using thermal imagine then are you on about stalking at night time?

Not at all. Thermal devices don't care if it's day or night: they simply show up anything that's warmer than the background. so you'll see bright white deer, foxes, rabbits, squirrels, mice and birds against a greyscale landscape. No need to strain to detect movement or differences in colour or texture. You can also see through foliage for a good distance and pick up residual warmth where deer have been bedded.

I absolutely agree that the unpredictability of stalking using traditional methods lies at the heart of its magic, and that the development of a patient temperament has a value all of its own, but I also wonder whether the sense that thermal imaging threatens these isn't just the 21st century version of the distaste for binoculars or riflescopes once expressed by our fathers or grandfathers.

In addition, if we feel that our relationship with the deer on our ground is one of management -indeed, if our very access to that ground is based on this notion-, and that meeting our cull targets is in the interests of the deer, the landlord and the stalker alike, perhaps we should be more ready to accept a device that makes these targets more attainable?
 
I'm lucky in having access to a rather nice FLIR imaging system and decided to try it one evening to see if it would be useful for a deer count. The plan was to wait until well after dark when everything on the ground would be pretty cold and the deer should stand out well.

The experience was that a good lamp used to detect deer eyes reflecting the light back worked much better than the thermal imaging system and allowed a much larger area to be covered more quickly.

I shot a deer and we did agree that the thermal imaging would be very good for helping finding shot deer, even after the deer was dead over an hour and gralloched it still stood out well at quite a reasonable distance.

Clearly my experiences are not the same as "stalking" or shooting with thermal imaging but the view was that the application for a thermal imaging system in deer management was very limited. When it comes to using it while stalking I wouldn't be keen on having to carry something else and also the display doesn't do wonders for night vision so when it came to last light not only would it be a pain to swap between thermal, binos and scope but it might impair your vision through the scope and I don't think it would give you enough advantage over the binos, under normal legal circumstances, to be really worthwhile to help spot deer.
 
I've spent a fair amount of time playing with some top-notch thermal imaging systems and whilst they would be a useful aid for carrying out population counts they would be no more than that, an aid. Generally you can see 20-25m into a standard FC coniferous woodland, at best, but a deer behind a decent sized tree is still invisible. Similiarly thick foliage can mask a thermal signature, as will the usual folds in the ground etc. Unfortunately, thermal doesn't work like it does in films and let you see how many people there are behind the wall! You certainly couldn't scan a Scottish Glen with a hand held thermal device and spot every deer.

If you wanted to know exactly how many deer were in a piece of land, a network of thermal security cameras would probably be the most effective way, but it would be prohibitively expensive!
 
The experience was that a good lamp used to detect deer eyes reflecting the light back worked much better than the thermal imaging system and allowed a much larger area to be covered more quickly.

I'm a bit surprised by this, as I've found -using a Guide IR518C- that it's easier with the thermal.

I shot a deer and we did agree that the thermal imaging would be very good for helping finding shot deer, even after the deer was dead over an hour and gralloched it still stood out well at quite a reasonable distance.

I've also found this useful.

When it comes to using it while stalking I wouldn't be keen on having to carry something else and also the display doesn't do wonders for night vision so when it came to last light not only would it be a pain to swap between thermal, binos and scope but it might impair your vision through the scope and I don't think it would give you enough advantage over the binos, under normal legal circumstances, to be really worthwhile to help spot deer.

Fair points. In reply, I think the decision we make to carry any piece of kit is literally weighed against its usefulness. Personally, I've found the thermal to be worth it's weight/bulk, neither of which is very great. As for the impact of the thermal on your night vision, this isn't such a problem if you dim the screen, but in any case I wouldn't advise anyone to take a shot at a deer at last light, and certainly not more than an hour after sunset. It may be worth repeating here that the thermal camera is as much use by day as it is by night: if you scan the wood whenever you stop and before moving again while still hunting, and at regular intervals or when the presence of an unseen deer is suspected when using a high seat, it can enable you to detect a deer you would otherwise have missed or to detect earlier one that would eventually have come into plain sight - in which case you can avoid making any careless movements that might spook it and be ready to take a shot when the opportunity arises.

63,

I take your points about the limitations of any hand-held device for counting deer in difficult terrain, but surely you'll be able to count more of them if you add thermal scanning to your other methods?
 
There are scopes and then there are scopes! Same with Thermal imagers, some good, some not so good, and some have to be seen to be believed.

I used one not so long ago that was good to about 1k and could clearly see deer at that distance,I used one quite a while ago that was good to 5k, this one was cumbersome and heavy and came with its own refrigeration system.

We used the the smaller one to count deer,it had a recording facility so could be analysed at a later date.
As a tool to the stalker not really relevant, but as a tool for a contractor then invaluable, but at 40k out of most peoples pockets.

regards
Now
 

As a tool to the stalker not really relevant, but as a tool for a contractor then invaluable, but at 40k out of most peoples pockets.

That was pretty much my take on the FLIR, it was about £7k I think. The cost-benefit analysis just didn't add up to a win for it and I think even contractors might be pushed to justify it in all but very specific circumstances. Yes it might spot the occasional deer the lamp doesn't but unless you had a very specific task for it the sums just didn't add up.

Even if they could produce one the size of a laser range finder for £200 I'm still not sure it would represent good value to the recreational stalker shooting under normal, legal, circumstances. Nice gadget to play with but of very limited real benefit.
 
I can't believe thermal imaging is being considered on a stalking site. To adopt that practice would be to take great license with the term "stalking", don't you think? That's about as sporting as the folks in this country who plant crops designed to draw deer to their fire. So much for Fair Chase! ~Muir
 
Great census tool and will make deer show up but my advice if you want to find more deer is stalk in to the wind and get yourself a dog.
 
I can't believe thermal imaging is being considered on a stalking site. To adopt that practice would be to take great license with the term "stalking", don't you think? That's about as sporting as the folks in this country who plant crops designed to draw deer to their fire. So much for Fair Chase! ~Muir

Muir,

I almost always agree with your posts on here, and I appreciate your dedication to the notion of "sportsmanlike behaviour", so I hesitate to gainsay you but I don't see how adding a thermal optical device to one's kit is qualitatively different from carrying a pair of binos or fitting a riflescope.

We know many stalkers decried these in the past in the name of sport, and I daresay that when firearms, and before that crossbows, and before that a trusty steed and a well-sharpened lance, took over from the barefooted hunter with his bow and arrows there were similar mutterings about unsportsmanlike behaviour... and who knows, those people may have been right, by the standards of their day.

The reality remains, however, that all of us today would advise novice stalkers to buy the best binos and scopes, and the most accurate rifles and ammunition they can afford. Most recently, laser rangefinders have gained acceptance, so why baulk at thermal cameras? Isn't decrying their use by others whilst using sophisticated optics or weaponry oneself akin to the bow hunter declaring the rifleman to be unsporting?

We all make our own choices of course, not all of them logical, and I share your desire to maintain a sporting dimension as it greatly enriches the practice of managing deer, but I don't see why we should regard the equipment available just prior to the introduction of thermal cameras as the non plus ultra of sportsmanlike stalking.
 
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I can't believe thermal imaging is being considered on a stalking site. To adopt that practice would be to take great license with the term "stalking", don't you think? That's about as sporting as the folks in this country who plant crops designed to draw deer to their fire. So much for Fair Chase! ~Muir

On the other hand, stalking has always been about men and their toys :p If so, can you really think of a better toy than a thermal imaging device :)?
 
I now use a mini-thermal imager as a standard piece of kit, whether I'm daylight stalking or NV foxing in the dark. The idea of it being unsportsmanlike is laughable, unless you believe everything you see in the movies. It is no different to carrying a pair of binos - indeed, mine hangs above my Nikon HGLs, so I can access either whenever I want. In some situations, the binos work better. In others, I choose the thermal. Like anything technical, it takes some getting used to - I've let other people look through it, and most can't see anything at all. With the small systems I'd say it takes a good 6 months to develop a satisfactory visual interpretation skill set. My big thermal rig - which weighs 7kgs not including the HD tripod, is a different matter though - any numpty can see what is what there!

WARNING - Unless you can afford to throw away several £k, don't buy any thermal kit until you've had a really good chance to assess what it can and can't do.
 
I am a traditionalist. Get up early or stay out at dusk, decent rifle scope and binos. Thats it. I think NV and thermal imagers is a bit like going fishing with a net. I will stick with the fly rod method. If we want our stocks to last well the traditional method is sufficient in my mind.
 
Muir,

I almost always agree with your posts on here, and I appreciate your dedication to the notion of "sportsmanlike behaviour", so I hesitate to gainsay you but I don't see how adding a thermal optical device to one's kit is qualitatively different from carrying a pair of binos or fitting a riflescope.

We know many stalkers decried these in the past in the name of sport, and I daresay that when firearms, and before that crossbows, and before that a trusty steed and a well-sharpened lance, took over from the barefooted hunter with his bow and arrows there were similar mutterings about unsportsmanlike behaviour... and who knows, those people may have been right, by the standards of their day.

The reality remains, however, that all of us today would advise novice stalkers to buy the best binos and scopes, and the most accurate rifles and ammunition they can afford. Most recently, laser rangefinders have gained acceptance, so why baulk at thermal cameras? Isn't decrying their use by others whilst using sophisticated optics or weaponry oneself akin to the bow hunter declaring the rifleman to be unsporting?

We all make our own choices of course, not all of them logical, and I share your desire to maintain a sporting dimension as it greatly enriches the practice of managing deer, but I don't see why we should regard the equipment available just prior to the introduction of thermal cameras as the non plus ultra of sportsmanlike stalking.

Mr Gain,
I draw a sharp distinction between binoculars or scopes and thermal imaging. How many times has a hunter looked through a binocular and not been able to distinguish the deer standing in the tumble from it's surroundings? It surely happens here. The ability to disappear in plain view is one of the deer's best defenses and it's stripped away by thermal imaging. I understand your logic regarding progression of technology but in the case of the bow, to the gun, to the scoped rifle, the deer is still allowed to utilize it's stealth. To remain hidden from the untrained eye. Thermal imaging would now take the shooting from the realm of stalking (or hunting, as we call it) to the level of warfare. If your job is to kill deer -to control their numbers at all costs- then I guess thermal imaging is a good and useful tool but to then refer to your activity as "stalking" would be an exaggeration. I think that we can only define ourselves as stalkers, or hunters, by the limits we place on ourselves when we take up the chase. JMHO. Regards~Muir
 
Mr Gain,
I draw a sharp distinction between binoculars or scopes and thermal imaging. How many times has a hunter looked through a binocular and not been able to distinguish the deer standing in the tumble from it's surroundings? It surely happens here. The ability to disappear in plain view is one of the deer's best defenses and it's stripped away by thermal imaging. I understand your logic regarding progression of technology but in the case of the bow, to the gun, to the scoped rifle, the deer is still allowed to utilize it's stealth. To remain hidden from the untrained eye. Thermal imaging would now take the shooting from the realm of stalking (or hunting, as we call it) to the level of warfare. If your job is to kill deer -to control their numbers at all costs- then I guess thermal imaging is a good and useful tool but to then refer to your activity as "stalking" would be an exaggeration. I think that we can only define ourselves as stalkers, or hunters, by the limits we place on ourselves when we take up the chase. JMHO. Regards~Muir

Have you ever used a hand-held thermal imager?
 
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