6.5 x 54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer

Turfer

Well-Known Member
Any one used one of these for stalking ?

I have been offered one of the take down models complete with detachable mounts and scope. But can not decide whether I should invest in one.
 
Unfortunately with factory cartridges your rifle will be illegal in Scotland as it is too slow. In England and Wales you have only the muzzle energy to bother about. This from accurate reloading website forum posted by me: This from the RWS website:

6.5 x 54 Mann.Sch. Bullet: TMR 10.3 g

Muzzle Velocity V[m/s]: 670 m/s
Muzzle Energy E[J]: 2312 joules

BC value: 0.315 Test barrel length: 450 mm

So the Deer Act specifies 2,305 joules muzzle energy. It seems to me that this RWS load, in a 450mm (SEVENTEEN INCHES) barrel just makes it.

Most M-S rifles are what? 20" plus? I can't remember what it was on the 1903 Model I had I think 23.50"?

If you've got one of those stupid silly carbines with a sub 18" barrel and a full length stock. Hmm! That may be a problem. But still OK if RWS are correct in their figures.

You should be OK as far as I read it. 10.3 grams is effectively 159 grains.

Go RWS!

http://www.rws-munition.de/en/...ic_data.htm?navid=10

Now whilst it might be legal does it make sense?

It is, in fact, a superb deer cartridge EVEN on the hill. A lot of the old time rifles swore by its 160 grain bullet as you could hear if it gave a good hit t the beast by the "thwack" it made when it finally arrived on the target!


But! These rifles are notorious for headspace problems and I would not buy one unless I had fired it first to check that. Also most date from the period of mercuric primers and cordite. So again, being already "large" in the bore, any wear to the bore is a greater problem than in a rifle with a "tight" bore.

Twist may, or may not, be a consideration. I think but may be wrong, that some had a gain twist. Certainly I had a Mannlicher 1903 about thirty years ago but can't remember if it was or was not a gain twist.

Accuracy? Again don't expect better than 3 moa. If you get 2 moa you've been very, very, lucky!


What is the 'scope, what are the mounts, how much is the package or is it a gift? Ammunition, btw, will be hideously expensive! When I bought factory RWS 6.5 x 54 in the late 1970s it was £60 per 100 then!
 
My reloading book mentions this cartridge as being very accurate.
The fastest load mentioned was: 127gr RWS, CCI Br2, 38gr N140. gives 2480fps.
edi
 
enfieldspares said:
What is the 'scope, what are the mounts, how much is the package or is it a gift? Ammunition, btw, will be hideously expensive! When I bought factory RWS 6.5 x 54 in the late 1970s it was £60 per 100 then!

Richard

The scope is a Kahles 6X42, the mount whilst being quick detachable the manufacture is as yet unknown. The rifle is of early 60's manufacture as it has the Monte Carlo stock but retains the original bolt safety as opposed to the later tang safety which I believe was introduced in the mid 60's.

Price? Well whilst its not at a give away price it is being offered to me at considerably less than the prices I have found similar rifles being sold at.

If I go ahead with the purchase the intention well be to "roll my own "ammo.

I've taken note of your comments re twist rates and potential head space problems. I shall have my gunsmith pal check them out and give the rifle a test run on his range if he gives it the thumbs up.

Thanks for your informed advise.
 
If it is a modern 60s M-S or S-M then I can't see a problem with it. I had in mind that you were maybe looking to buy and old hack from the time of Edward VII or George V.

It is only on the really old ones from pre-WWI and that time frame that I would worry about. I don't think, either, that you will have any sort of gain twist in your barrel.

Also the 'scope will be relatively modern. Again I've seen these things, or similar by Rigby, with a original Aldis, and the like, and frankly many of these old optics are more collectable than usable.

Overall the rifle should be of first rate workmanship. However what you can't change is the twist rate of the rifling and I at least check that before you buy.

I don't know what rate is best for 160 grain bullets or if it would be suitable also for modern pointed 120 grain bullets.

Maybe the 6.5 x 55 users could advise?
 
I'm no collector of antique or vintage weaponry. LOL

However I am and always have been an admirer of what came to be known as the "Best rifle in the world".

The scope is relatively new which is a blessing as well as a disappointment. As I would have loved to have had say a classic Zeiss or Schmidt. I can see that I might end up to regretting selling my Hertel&Reuss late 50's manufactured scope even more than I do now.

The older 1903's that were built with the 10.3gm/160gn bullets in mind have a 1:9 or slightly higher twist rate. Until I get my gunsmith the scope the bore and do the necessary I'll just have to sit and hope. The 160gr cartridge is rumoured to have a slight tendency for the case to split at the neck which would need to be looked into especially as I'd be reloading.

Your input is much appreciated.

Turfer
 
They are very nice little rifles and if they didn't have the bolt on the wrong side (I'm left handed) would be tempted by one. My old man had one in Zambia and loved it, and I know a couple of people in Scotland who still use them every year - one is still using his grandfathers, complete with original scope and thinks nothing of it.

But be realistic in your expectations - if you are wanting to shoot the lefteye of a fox at 250 yds get a modern flat shooting custom rifle.

But if you are happy to work within its limitations - ie ability to keep three rounds in a three inch group at 100yds and want to enjoy a classic rifle then go for it.

You may have to use your stalking skills to get a bit closer, and take body shots rather than neck shots but not sure that is really a limitation unless you are professional stalker haveing to complete a large cull.

I would suggest trying it before you buy if possible and also have the bore measured.

Price - have a look a the auctions - eg www.holtandcompany.co.uk - will give you a fair indication of the sort of price that is achievable in the market.
 
My mate has one, well half of one. It has the 1903 action that has been re-barrelled in 6.5X55 swede and restocked in a exhibition grade walnut stock, It is a lovely looking rifle and the rotary mag’ is a joy. Accuracy is not too bad as I remember 1 ¼” groups with homeloads, the new barrel no doubts helps. The thing is he rarely takes it out, may be on the roe bucks in the summer. He is too afraid of damaging it, normally reaches for the stainless steel 270 Tikka most of the time.

If we weren’t restricted on the number of rifles we could own, I would love to have one to play with on a summers day, along with a Lee Enfield.

Best rgds

Tahr
 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thar,

brilliant, you have finally realised the beauty of the 6.5. ;)

I knew deep down that you were dying to explode out of the closit. :oops:

Maybe it was the thought of the great SD and deep penetration. :eek:

Cheers,

J


PS.













Awaiting your response :evil:
 
I got a variation for 6.5mm few years ago, as I had my eye on a non-takedown M-S rifle, complete with full-length canvas, leather and oak case bearing railway company luggage stickers for Inverness.

As things turned out, I bought a rifle almost exactly the opposite in every regard, namely a Finnlight in 6.5x55. A matter of head over heart, for once.

However, while considering the 6.5x54 I found that Kynamco load a 140gr pill at 2700fps, which although they don't declare a test barrel length should be legal for Scotland even in a carbine.
 
jingzy said:
:brilliant, you have finally realised the beauty of the 6.5. ;)

I knew deep down that you were dying to explode out of the closit. :oops:

Maybe it was the thought of the great SD and deep penetration. :eek:

Cheers,

J

Jingzy

You are not trying to hijack this thread and cause trouble again are you?

I said:- “I would love to have one to play with on a summers day, along with a Lee Enfield.”

That is a bit different to using one as a serious efficient deer culling tool,
and as Enfield spares points out they come in other calibers not only 6.5mm, you can have one in 270 or 7X57. :lol:

The beauty of the Mannlicher Schoenauer 1903 to an engineer is in its rotary magazine, and the take down ability of that particular model, it is nothing to do with its 6.5x54 calibre, which as has been pointed out is on the limits of being Deer legal. ;)

I see that the new Browning X bolt also uses a rotary magazine not unlike the M-S, shame the made the bloody thing in plastic instead of stainless steel.

Best rgds

Tahr
 
Not highjacking Thar,

it is after all the start of the fishing season, so I thought I would cast a line.

It sounds like a very interesting litle rifle that is being discussed.

Cheers,

J
 
Gents, not again please, I can't stand it all over again :D

Kevin, we fully appreciate that you would like one from an interest point and not as a serious deer culling tool. I don't know what that man Bell was thinking shooting Elephants and dangerous game with one, absolute madness :D :D

John
 
John

Bell used what was one of the best rifles available at that time and if the same design was made today from modern materials ect it still might be one of the best. Although most of Bell’s elephants fell to it once it had been re-barrel to 7X57.

What is not often mentioned is that to quote Bell “never a soft point bullet will foul my barrel”. :eek: He used solid bronze bullets when shooting game, it worked for him, but I am not sure we would advocate non-expanding solid bullets for shooting game today. :confused:

Jingzy

Get some better bait, :lol: nice to see you have your sense of humour back. ;)

Best rgds

Tahr
 
And the second cast produced a rise :D :D

Kevin never leave the site I would miss you terribly.

John
 
The first estate i worked on had 5 or 6 in the cabinet , we had 2 converted to 243, took of the iron sights and had the safeties put on the sides, they were great hill rifles, I'm sure it was Dan L. Fraser that did the work.
 
We have two in the collection. Both bought from WJ Jeffreys, and the cost was £22-10-00 brand new.

Major Powell Cotton used them throughout his hunting career even taking Buffalo and Elephant with them, although he also used a double 400 and also for a small amount of time a 600.

Nice looking rifle, lovely action, but today I will also stick with my stainless 270 and 25.06.

Oh I also have a 303 to play with on summer evenings :lol: :lol:
 
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