Lead Contamination

MarkH

Well-Known Member
Just another pic of why I dont like my venison shot with lead bullets.

lead.jpg


Mark
 
Mark,

Do you know if it was a polymer tip or a normal lead soft point?

I would assume polymer tip?

Kyle
 
Hi Kyle

RWS Teilmantle ie normal lead roundnose bullet from a 7x64.

Scotsgun

This is normal lead contamination not a failing bullet. 80% weight retension = 20% lead/copper fragments in the meat. This would be worse with a standard ballistic tip.
Lead fragmets are tasteless and usually too small to see.

Mark
 
If you look at the radiograph you can see the internal organs are still present. Even though a most of he lead will be removed with the gralloch a small amount remains in the meat by direct and indirect transfer. It then passes into the foodchain where it accumulates in the top predator i.e. you.
Ballitic tips lead to high contamination
Std lead core bullets are also high
Bonded cores are lower
Monolithics are zero

Mark
 
By the entry and exit positions it was very badly shot in the first place .

From my store of information that particular bullet would be 11.2 gram or 173 grains weight .
I had a 7X65R DB O/U which was regulated for that bullet and killed hundreds of Deer with NO problems or suspected scatter like that , but of course my Deer were not Xrayed so who knows what unseen damage was really caused .

HWH .
 
Stag

This roe was shot during a driven hunt ie on the run. Bullet placement has nothing to do with the lead scatter. No bones were hit from looking at the raiograph. The point is that lead scatter like this is universal and the only wat to aviod/reduce it is well constructed bonded core bullets or lead free alternatives.
This is more relevant to those who eat venison regularily over a long period of time.
Lead shot is different as it is substantially bigger than lead dust and presents less surface area when ingested.
The only other way is to head shoot the beasts.

Mark
 
I thought that elemental lead could not be digested and so passed through humans. What percentage of this lead is in a form that might be digested? What percentage of it is actually digested? Are lead levels in the bodies of people who often eat venison at or above levels currently considered dangerous?

We need to exercise great caution here as "lead" is one of the big sticks that the green nutters are planning to use against shooting. They are attempting to "prove" (that is to say spin the science to their own ends) that lead contamination from shooting poisons the land, to remove access to ranges, and also that wild game meat shot by hunters is not fit for human consumption. In doing so they hope to turn the public against shooting and against the reason for shooting, i.e. wild game meat, and to use political leverage against us. Lead is about to become the "rich toffs living off the backs of the poor peasant farmers" that were used to turn a percentage of the urban public against fox hunting.

So, while we need to look at such photographs in order to prepare ourselves to do battle against the green nutters when they come for our rifles and our right to freely roam the countryside without CCTV and being followed by some sandle wearing, yogurt knitting, whinging bloke who lives in a mud hut and eats grass. We also need to avoid sensationalising these matters. Many people are unsure of what represents science or how science works and photos like the one posted could easily lead us to conclude that lead is a bad thing but I'm not at all sure that the science is so firm. With that in mind I think threads like this offer an excellent chance to practise arguments in our defence and to educate hunters to the threat facing them but I would urge great caution. I would also venture to suggest that the well organised and funded green nutters (Do you know that the EU, using my tax money, provides over half the funding to some of these green nutter groups?) are probably already working on a list of good reasons as to why copper bullets are a bad thing - at the very least expect them to kill innocent children and impact upon a range of rare but cuddly wildlife species that must be saved.
 
Hi

Here is a link from a medline search put into laymans terms

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/lead/docs/lead.pdf

The enviromental data was based on deaths in sea-eagle and californian condor populations which feed on the gralloch left by hunters.

I am not a fanatical greeny but is does make sense to objectivly look at alternatives and be proactive rather than reactive and defensive.
Diffusing an argument before it happens is always the best choice especially if you are going to lose the argument if you entrench youself.
Copper bullets and steel shot are part of that change and we should embrace these changes earlier. Pheasants dont suffer from lead poisoning as badly as the lead is in the form of pellets rather than microscopic dust.

Mark
 
MarkH said:
Here is a link from a medline search put into laymans terms

The enviromental data was based on deaths in sea-eagle and californian condor populations which feed on the gralloch left by hunters.

The link establishes that lead poisoning is possible, I can't see any clear evidence of a link to lead in venison or a treatment of how much lead, if any, can be absorbed from bullet fragments.

The research certainly on condors was a highly politicised PR and media management stunt funded and supported by a range of green nutter organisations as part of their attempts to restrict the activities of others. While there may, or may not, be solid evidence to support lead poisoning in condors, for example, the research was so directed and polarized as to make it impossible to draw any definite conclusions from it other than that cash buys you the answer you want, no matter which side you are on.

I must also take exception to the idea that there is something wrong with being defensive. We are defending a sport we love and which has taken place in Europe for many hundreds of years in various forms. Our traditional hill stalking has its roots in Victorian times and is a truly unique experience that ensures the conservation of large tracts of the UK and, especially, Scotland and which gives many people pleasure and the freedom to head outdoors and enjoy themselves in a responsible and legal manner. To be defensive of this way of life is something to be proud of and a position that should be supported by all right thinking people who respect the freedoms of others to enjoy their sport as they please as long as it doesn't endanger others. The green nutters have absolutely nothing to give, their life is based on a pseudo-religious system of belief akin to a cult, so when it comes to any "give and take" type of horse trading it is only us, the stalkers, who have something to give away. In this manner the green nutters are intent on slowly eroding our freedoms one tiny bit at a time until, in the end, stalking is to all intents and purposes illegal. Today it might be lead but I think we all know that tomorrow the green nutters will be spinning "science" about copper bullets in an attempt to ensure they are banned. We are lucky, at present, that to some extent their eye is off the ball and focused on the cult of man made global warming but as the science becomes more and more clear that there is no basis for claims of a human signature in the behaviour of our climate they will soon be walking away from the man made warming story and looking for something else to attract media attention. In my experience nothing attracts media attention better than guns in the hands of private citizens.

So, show me the figures for people known to have died from lead poisoninig from eating venison, or game of any type. Compare those figures to the number of people who die from sitting on their fat backsides when they could be out keeping fit walking the hill after a deer and thereby reducing the chances of a stroke or heart attack and then attempt to convince me that lead bullets are more dangerous than engineering a risk adverse population into a lifestyle of sitting in front of the TV because it is safe.

As an amusing aside to this, but a useful illustration of how effective media management can spin a risk into the political forum, an associate was involved in some research into a "high risk" activity that the press, driven at least in part by the same green nutters who are anti-shooting, were reporting was killing loads of people every year and so must be stopped. There was much fuss about the dangers involved and there were calls, even, for various types of cameras which could be used to detect people engaging in this activity and suggestions that physical measures should be put in place to make it impossible to carry the activity out. The chap I know, an engineer who specialised in the area, did some research and established that the chances of dying from this awful activity were, actually, about equal to you chances of dying from an accident when putting on your clothes. So, lets not see shooting banned on the basis of the "danger" sold to a media driven risk adverse urban population when a more unbiased and detailed examination may support the position that the benefits outweigh the risks. Perspective is something that seems to have been lost in this country and much of this is down to single issue groups driving the agenda of a media gasping for the next, biggest, doom story. The green nutters, using some of my money, pour literally billions of pounds into this media feeding frenzy to keep the pot boiling and we are one of their targets.
 
Humans are not, maybe a surprise to some, blessed by the Good Lord with the same digestive system as birds. We do not have, at least I do not, a gizzard.

Therefore we do not grind our food as does a bird with grit and whatever else is in the gizzard. Until and unless, overnight, we do suddenly develop gizzards I will not worry about any lead shot I might ingest.

What I do worry about however are fragments of copper bullet jacket. These are very sharp and could, unlike lead, possibly cause internal cutting of our digestive tract.

Indeed they are said to be, in cases of surgery following gun shot, a great worry to surgeons fearing that their fingers might be cut by these fragments.
 
Coarach I hope you feel better now you have got that off your chest. My post was to inform and not an attack on civil liberties or global conspiracy theories.

Lots of people like to quote bullet weight before and after hitting game ie 70% weight retension etc etc but never ask what happened to the 30 % that remained in the beast

The problem with supplying the data you request is that its impossible to do an ethical study by feeding people contaminated bambiburger and seeing what happens. Double blind controlled studies removing all confounding factors would never pass an ethics committee. We could take members of the forum and draw their blood and do an IQ test then compare it to a group of non game eating omnivours but I'm not that bothered.We know heavy metals are toxic and accumulate in the human body (lead free petrol) so reducing exposure seems a sensible precaution.

Here is another link to some youtube vids on lead v copper

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3955&highlight=

I just happen to eat a lot of venison and the cleaner the meat the better

Lead bullets dust, while Copper bullets splinter. Absorbtion is based on available surface area to react with gastric acids etc . Lead from a std hunting bullet in a carcass has a 17.8 fold greater surface area than its copper equivalent.
I shoot monolithics and the copper fragments are v big and easy to find but thats not the main reason I use then. The main reason in dramatically reduced carcass damage. The lead contamination is secondary in my bullet choice.

Mark
 
The x ray just illustrates the Macroscopic pieces of lead. I do not believe these to be the real danger as their surface area is not comparatively as large as the MICROSCOPIC particles (which you will not see on x ray). If you fire an expanding bullet at a plastic container of water , you will find fragments of lead form large to microscopic that have settled to the bottom.
When I did my forensic medicine course at medical school, we were taught that when people are shot in the chest, shotgun pellets can be carried via the ascending aorta to the brain where they could cause an occlusive stroke as they 'ballcocked' the cerebral arterioles.
A disintergrating bullet does what it is designed to do & disintergrates centrifugally (most spin at 250,000rpm) and in a forward & lateral direction, into microscopic particles. If a deer is shot in the chest(where we are advised to shoot them), tiny particles can enter the pulmonary veins and carried to the still beating heart, (The heart can beat for several seconds even after a fatal chest shot). Once in the heart it can be pumped out to everywhere blood gets to. Which is evetywhere! If No 6 lead shot can be pumped around, then I do not think that microscopic lead particles will have much of a problem.
 
We still have no definitive proof of death caused by lead poisoning, with links to eating shot game, some of my relatives worked in the Chester leadworks, the one where lead has been in the environment (all of it), since they made the shot for the Crimean conflict, some of them became ill due to lead poisoning, only after many many hours, over years, in the works, where high concentrations of airborne lead dust were present, & food eaten on site was contaminated through handling food in a workplace,similarly with the clothing worn, so you can be well assured that I feel no threat from any piffling amount of lead from bullets,(as long as I am not the initial aiming point!:D) :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
We all know of elderly relatives that have lived to 110, smoked like a trooper & have still done the London Marathon. This anecdotal evidence does not mean that smoking is safe. You do not need to die of lead poisoning for it to be harmul. Look up lead poisoning on Wikkipedia. Unlike shotgunners we have a good alternative, Copper bullets.
 
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