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Thread: Does lead Ammunition have a future?

  1. #1

    Does lead Ammunition have a future?

    Some will be aware of the proceedings of the Lead ammunition Group. Others will stick their heads in the sand and whistle!
    All of us who shoot rifle/shotgun, live quarry or targets need to wake up and let the powers that be know our views.
    There is a real danger that our shooting will once again be severely affected by complacency and dogma.
    The Lead Ammunition Group working party is made up of representatives from the following organisations:

    British Association for Shooting and Conservation (Chairman)
    The Gun Trade Association Ltd
    Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust
    National Game Dealers Association
    Country Land and Business Association
    Universities Federation for Animal Welfare RSPB
    Institute of Environment and Health
    Countryside Alliance
    Wildfowl & Wetlands trust

    I've looked at the proceeding of this group and it is quite clear that
    the risk of lead in the food chain is very limited and what is more
    there is sufficient legislation on the statue books to cover this
    small risk i.e. The 1990 Food Safety Act and the E.C directive
    The Food Standards Agency and DEFRA had already concluded that lead is
    a low risk with regard to food and indicated in the past that "the warning on the label"
    should suffice. This approach has worked for a number of years.
    The threat to lead use is in my opinion and many others a dogmatic and
    mischievous attempt to severely hinder legitimate shooting activities
    by certain groups intent on a total ban on hunting shooting and
    eventually fishing!!
    A curious tool of EC legislation “the Precautionary Principle” allows uncertain science/research to be used to make decisions. This principle is being exploited in order to push forward a ban by these groups.
    A lead ban will affect all shooting including target and clay shooting.
    Your support to throw out this proposal will be greatly appreciated by those who enjoy their sport and who have been affected by unfair legislation in recent years. Don't just rely on your shooting organisation contact your MPs etc and air your views

    Lead Ammunition Ban (see the following website)
    Type Lead Ammunition group into your search engines and follow the progress of this issue.

  2. #2
    if you were to compare the weight of lead fired over the UK and compare it to any other toxin being either released into the atmosphere or land/water it would pale into insignificance.

    There is another angle. Animal welfare.
    Lead substitutes simply do not kill as cleanly at the same ranges as they are inherently less dense and carry less energy at POI.
    ask anyone using steel shot

    On the plus side, getting lead free 338LapMag cleared for deer won't be a problem!

  3. #3

    ---------- Original Message ----------
    From: SMITH Alyn <>
    To: ed
    Date: 09 July 2012 at 09:54
    Subject: RE: ECHA Investigation on Lead in Ammunition

    Thank you for getting in touch on the use of lead in shot. I am happy
    to put your mind at rest, and hopefully clear up a few misapprehensions
    which seem to have crept into discussion of this issue.

    As you say, there are already restrictions on the use of lead shot.
    These restrictions were introduced because of evidence that lead causes
    harm over wetlands.

    Where you say "There is, however, absolutely no evidence that the use of
    lead shot outside wetlands has any environmental impact and there is
    likewise no evidence of any impact on human health. In the UK Defra has
    set up a 'Lead Ammunition Group' to review scientific research and
    advise government." you get to the heart of the issue. The fact that
    DEFRA has established the Lead Ammunition Group demonstrates that there
    is indeed a case to investigate.

    Similarly, the ECHA is mounting an investigation into the use of lead in
    shot precisely in order to either find evidence, or give it a clean bill
    of health. I would stress to you, the jury is very much out and the
    case is unproven either way. I hope you would agree that any new
    restrictions should be based on a proper scientific assessment and
    proportionate to the actual risk, based on evidence. The fact that some
    campaigners are calling for a ban does not mean that there will be one.

    For my part, I await the findings of the proper scientific and advisory
    bodies, and will take my view from there. Once the reviews are
    completed, then we can see what evidence exists. Should any actual
    proposals be brought forward then I will examine them on their merits
    and proportionality to the scientific assessment of risk to animal and
    human health.

    I hope you agree that that is a proportionate and sensible position
    while the proper scientific assessments are carried out, which I
    understand will take a considerable time yet. I thank you for your
    support and will keep an eye on this meantime.

    Yours aye,



    Alyn Smith MEP
    Member of the European Parliament for Scotland
    Scottish National Party - On your side in Europe
    The SNP is a democratic left of centre party committed to an independent
    Scotland within the European Union. The SNP is the government of

    E-mail: <>

    Web: Alyn Smith | MEP Scotland is Europe | SNP - EU or find me on Facebook!

    SNP Member? E-mail us to sign up for Alyn's "Euronews network" of
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    Tel: 0032 (0)2 284 5187; Fax: 0032 (0)2 284 9187


    Edinburgh: SNP Headquarters, Gordon Lamb House, 3 Jackson's Entry,
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    6HJ, Scotland


  4. #4
    A very good thread to post.

    Time after time we win the argument and lose the campaign - because we don't argue the case in the right circles.

    My MSP knows my views - does your's? Not just on lead, but a whole raft of issues that affect me. I'm not camped on his door step, just a few letters/ e mail each year and a point of looking him up if we are in the same place.

    If we put 1/1000th of the effort into a polite occasional letter of facts - not ranting - that we appear to do on here arguing Sako v Blaser etc, it would make a difference in the long run.

    I have not tried the whole range of lead free projectiles - but those I have thus far haven't been satisfactory on welfare and safety grounds.

    Last I heard, several hunting areas in Germany that had mandated lead free quickly reversed the decision after accidents involving rounds bouncing/ travelling far more than soft points ever had.

    Care required as the obvious Anti Answer is if its sooo dangerous, you shouldn't be doing it!

    Get the facts, write a letter/ e mail.
    Stalking and Courses
    BASC Approved Trainer & Assessor. Cairngorm National Park Authority Approved Supplier. Supported by Sauer Arms
    See you at Kelso, Scone & Moy 2016

  5. #5
    Truth and common sense will have nothing to do with lead beign banned.

    It's money and the possibility of a few votes from the loonies on the left and wacky greens.

    The fact that the greens policies often damage the environment more is just conveniently ignored as it does not fit into their little bubble.

    Also the fact that it will outlaw the .22 L/R and so remove perhaps the most common firearm in use by sportsman and hunters meets their criteria rather nicely of not only removing the bad .................... bad lead but also removing many lethal weapons from the public. of course it will not alter the crimes rates except to drive them up as per normal when they bring in such draconian bans.

  6. #6
    ---------- Original Message ----------
    From: STIHLER Catherine <>
    To: ed
    Date: 09 July 2012 at 10:25
    Subject: RE: ECHA Investigation on Lead in Ammunition

    Dear Mr B,

    Thank you for your email regarding lead in ammunition and the EU's chemical legislation.

    There are no current plans to further restrict lead in lead shot. As you mention, the UK has already brought in restrictions on the use of lead shot in wetlands in line with our international environmental commitments - however not all EU countries have done so yet.

    With this in mind, the European Chemicals Agency has contracted a UK consultancy to study the cost of phasing out lead in shots - including looking at possible alternatives. Stakeholders such as the Countryside Alliance have been providing information to help this research. The study is part of a wider project - in conjunction with the UK Environment Agency and the UK's Health and Safety Executive - to better understand the abatement costs of reducing the use of hazardous substances in general.

    Should the European Commission or any EU country decide - in the future - to propose further restrictions on lead in lead shots, this would have to undergo a lengthy approval process lasting several years. Any proposal would be subject to several rounds of public consultation, and would have to be agreed several times by a committee of experts from every EU Member State. Officials from the UK government would be involved at every stage of the decision-making procedure. Substances are only restricted after rigorous scientific assessment proving that there is a risk to human health or the environment - to date, only 14 substances are restricted under the EU REACH legislation, and the decision to do so is not taken lightly.

    I hope this information is useful.

    Yours sincerely,


    Catherine Stihler MEP
    Labour MEP for Scotland

    Tel +32 2 284 5462
    Fax +32 2 284 9462

    The European Parliamentary Labour Party is an integral part of the Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists & Democrats in the European Parliament and of the Labour Party. Labour's Euro Parliamentarians represent their voters so as to advance democracy, social justice, prosperity, peace and sustainable development in the UK, EU and throughout the world.

  7. #7

    Does lead ammunition have a future?

    Thank you for your replies so far.
    The "wait and see" reply has not done much good in the past as we know already!!

    But there is sufficient legislation throughout Europe in place via the food Safety Act and it's statutory instruments to cope with lead in food. The Minister has the power impose a control order should lead levels become a danger or new information copes to light (The Beef on the bone ban - BSE)

    The other concern is the use of the Precautionary Principle which can be used to bring in legislation where there is a "belief that harm can be caused but insufficient information is available".

    The UK Food Standards Agency has carried out risk assessments on lead in food in the past so what has changed?

    Last edited by EssBee; 09-07-2012 at 11:27.

  8. #8
    Fight the Green Bullet tooth and nail! Look at California.~Muir

  9. #9
    A lot of people bleated about the lead shot ban, and did nothing! Hence we have ended up using materials which apart from two (Tungsten Matrix & Hevi-Shot) are liable to leave far more wounded birds than lead ever did.

    I asked for and received the studies upon which the ban was based. They were all by Nature Conservancy Council, a governmental body, and not surprisingly told the government what it wanted to hear.

    Also not many people realise that the lead shot ban imposed by a labour party, under severe pressure from the EU, was based on two instances of swans being poisoned by ingested lead shot in Scotland. One of which was downstream from a clay-shooting ground. No evidence has ever been found that ingested lead shot is causing deaths of ducks, geese or any wetland bird other than swans.

    No mention at all was made of the study carried out in Lindisfarne, which has the longest history of continuous wildfowling in the UK, by Palmer & Evans (1991) of Durham university on teal shot there. There were no deaths from ingested lead shot and of the 360 odd teal tested only one had slightly elevated levels of lead in its system.

    BASC thought it wise to "go along" with the government because they got a backhanded agreement to leave gameshooting alone, therefore leaving wildfowlers hanging out to dry. Granted they were put under immense political pressure, but I for one was highly disappointed with their attitude.

    I will state the fact again, not one duck, goose or wetland bird on the game list has ever been found that has died from ingested lead shot!

    If you value using lead, and we ought to because of its wonderful efficiency in humanely dispatching quarry like deer, you will all be writing to your MP's and MEP's to fight our corner.

    Anyone who would like the list of studies used by the last labour government to justify their spurious legislation needs only to PM me and I will dig them out of the drawer and send you the details. Dr John Harradine of the BASC sent them to me on request, when I was still a member of that not so august organisation. I will also give you the details of the Palmer and Evans study so you can source your own copy, it makes very interesting reading, and it is truly amazing that our "Main" shooting organisation never used it to defend our sport.

    Please write to your elected representitives supporting the use of lead, or you will only have yourselves to blame.

    Last edited by flytie; 10-07-2012 at 15:04. Reason: re-naming government organisations

  10. #10
    Over the last 10 years I have listened to Dr John Harriman Speak at countless meetings and every time I hear him speak I am more and more worried that this guy is a specialist in lead shot.
    If we have to realy on him we are in trouble, and a lot of my wildfowling friends have the same opinion.
    He has such a negative attitude.

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