Wiltshire FLO judge a DD Conviction renders Priest an unfit Counter-Signatory

NorthDorset

Well-Known Member
Title says it all.

I asked my local priest to endorse my photo's for my SGC and be a character reference on my FAC renewal as he had done 5 years ago. Wiltshire FLO have returned my paperwork as my countersignatory is unsuitable. Can only assume this was due to his quite well publicised drink drive incident about 3 years ago.

Considering the Chief Constable of Cumbria was exonerated in the inquiry into Derrick Bird for allowing him the grant of a Shotgun and Firearms certificate to him dispite a DD conviction, I feel thats a bit harsh on the priest.

Surely for my Shotgun renewal held 15 years+ they just need someone they can verify exists to say this is a true likeness? If they want to verify it check the Daily Telegraph archive!

Perhaps I can understand that they wont accept a character reference from someone who's character has been called into question but there are two referees for Firearms.

Does an incident like this really prevent someone offering a valid opinion? Sure if I got done driving while over the limit I expect the FLO to be looking hard at my self control and judgement in respect of firearms but to endorse a photo!

If my Doctor had a Drink Drive conviction would they still accept his medical opinion?

Ive never heard anything like this before.
 
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Title says it all.

I asked my local priest to endorse my photo's for my SGC and be a character reference on my FAC renewal as he had done 5 years ago. Wiltshire FLO have returned my paperwork as my countersignatory is unsuitable. Can only assume this was due to his quite well publicised drink drive incident about 3 years ago.

Considering the Chief Constable of Cumbria was exonerated in the inquiry into Derrick Bird for allowing him the grant of a Shotgun and Firearms certificate to him dispite a DD conviction, I feel thats a bit harsh on the priest.

Surely for my Shotgun renewal held 15 years+ they just need someone they can verify exists to say this is a true likeness? If they want to verify it check the Daily Telegraph archive!

Perhaps I can understand that they wont accept a character reference from someone who's character has been called into question but there are two referees for Firearms.

Does an incident like this really prevent someone offering a valid opinion? Sure if I got done drive while over the limit I expect the FLO to be looking hard at my self control and judgement in respect of firearms but to endorse a photo!

If my Doctor had a Drink Drive conviction would they still accept his medical opinion?

Ive never heard anything like this before.

Nope a Doctor usually loses his or her licence if they get that sort of conviction mate - my Doc and I had this conversation last time I was there!

I don't think a priest is on the "person of suitable standing" list is it? - The fact that he/she's a priest isn't enough to speak for their character, and whilst I'm not suggesting this is the case with your priest we had a local priest who was simply transferred to another area for being convicted of grooming young boys on the internet... my point being that impeccible public standing is not a pre-requisite of being a preist as they will not be thrown out of the church for breaking the law in the same way as a doctor or lawyer will lose their jobs for the same offence.

I used another FAC holder and my barber (mother of 3 and business owner) as my referees, and also got a couple of character references from my family GP and the owner of my rifle club.

Has yours gone through ok or do you need another referee? Have you got an old manager or something you can use?
 
North Wales Police

Applications for a grant or renewal of a shotgun certificate must be countersigned. Your counter signatory must complete part D of the shotgun application form.

Your counter signatory must be a Member of Parliament, Justice of the Peace, Minister of Religion/Priest or a person of similar standing. It is not exhaustive and other people may satisfy the requirement. Managers, Managing Directors and Company Secretaries are not suitable countersignatories.


West Midlands Police

[h=3]Acceptable Countersignatories[/h]
  • Members of Parliament
  • Minister of religion
  • Doctor
  • Dentist
  • Lawyer
  • Established civil servant
  • Senior bank or building society official
  • Justice of the Peace
  • Lecturer
  • Teacher
  • Accountant
  • Senior manager
Cheshire Constabulary

Your countersignatory must be a Member of Parliament, Justice of the Peace,
Minister of Religion/Priest or a person of similar standing. Below is a list of some
of the occupations considered suitable by Cheshire Constabulary. It is not
exhaustive and other people may satisfy the requirement. Managers, Managing
Directors and Company Secretaries are not suitable Countersignatories.

Solicitor/Lawyer  Legal Executive

Postmaster/Mistress  Dentist

Accountant  Fire Officer

Nurse/Health Visitor  Engineer (qualified)

Surveyor  Teacher

Councillor  Bank or Building Society Official

Established Civil Servant  Local Government Officer

Prison Officer  Retired Police Officer

Veterinary Surgeon  Airline Pilot

Tax Officer  Commissioned Officer in Her
Majesty’s Services.

Architect  Probation Officer
Please note – serving police officers, police employees and Registered Firearms
Dealers cannot act as countersignature


Lets not degrade this to more Priest knocking. The question here isnt of their suitability it is of their standing being so adversly affected by a Driving Disqualification as to not be a suitable Counter Signatory.

I understood that if you were a Company Director it had to be of a company with 20 staff. Not sure how a Barber counted?



 
I think you've misunderstood my point - the OP said he assumed it was due to the DD offense, my point was that this is more than reason to not count him as a suitable countersignatory as it put's into question his character. i.e. unlike most of the other people on the list priests can remain priests with this on their record; most cannot. Furthermore having said this it could be any number of offences - not just the one's we know about.

All my FL depts guidelines say is a person of suitable standing: http://www.sussex.police.uk/media/3171/Reference%20form%20125.pdf
 
Chap in question has a spotless record other than this. He was also deemed suitable 5 years ago.

I rang Wiltshire FLO who wont comment on this individual case but acknowleged that a 3 month drink drive ban would likely render a counter signatory invalid. Obviously I could do with out the hassle but trying to take a step back I still think this is harsh. Not only must they have "impeccable public standing" but be practically blooming perfect!

A Doctor so convicted wouldnt automatically lose their licence to practice medicine but would probably have their conduct investigated by the BMA.

Luckily I have a number of suitable people to vouch for me so the new paperwork went back inside 3 hours and will be with them tomorrow.
 
You have made the assumption that the unsuitability is down to the Drink Driving Offence.

The facts are that the Licensing Dept have informed you that this person regardless of profession or social standing is unsuitable.

I would suggest that you tell the Priest that has been the response and look at another countersignatory.

In Strathclyde Force area, a different referee or countersignatory on renewal would "flag up" prompting a couple of phone calls to those involved as to the reason why. ( adding further to the time involved in the process)

In your case the reason would be obvious.

If the Priest takes umbrage at his "unsuitabilty" then he could take up the matter as to the reasons why.
 
North Wales Police

Applications for a grant or renewal of a shotgun certificate must be countersigned. Your counter signatory must complete part D of the shotgun application form.

Your counter signatory must be a Member of Parliament, Justice of the Peace, Minister of Religion/Priest or a person of similar standing. It is not exhaustive and other people may satisfy the requirement. Managers, Managing Directors and Company Secretaries are not suitable countersignatories.


West Midlands Police

Acceptable Countersignatories


  • Members of Parliament
  • Minister of religion
  • Doctor
  • Dentist
  • Lawyer
  • Established civil servant
  • Senior bank or building society official
  • Justice of the Peace
  • Lecturer
  • Teacher
  • Accountant
  • Senior manager
Cheshire Constabulary

Your countersignatory must be a Member of Parliament, Justice of the Peace,
Minister of Religion/Priest or a person of similar standing. Below is a list of some
of the occupations considered suitable by Cheshire Constabulary. It is not
exhaustive and other people may satisfy the requirement. Managers, Managing
Directors and Company Secretaries are not suitable Countersignatories.

Solicitor/Lawyer  Legal Executive

Postmaster/Mistress  Dentist

Accountant  Fire Officer

Nurse/Health Visitor  Engineer (qualified)

Surveyor  Teacher

Councillor  Bank or Building Society Official

Established Civil Servant  Local Government Officer

Prison Officer  Retired Police Officer

Veterinary Surgeon  Airline Pilot

Tax Officer  Commissioned Officer in Her
Majesty’s Services.

Architect  Probation Officer
Please note – serving police officers, police employees and Registered Firearms
Dealers cannot act as countersignature


Lets not degrade this to more Priest knocking. The question here isnt of their suitability it is of their standing being so adversly affected by a Driving Disqualification as to not be a suitable Counter Signatory.

I understood that if you were a Company Director it had to be of a company with 20 staff. Not sure how a Barber counted?



Do I detect something of a "white collar" bias here? :stir: atb Tim
 
I didn't realise that a manager wasn't suitable - and obviously, neither did Humberside police!
One of my refs was an FAC holder, and the other was my direct boss (transport manager).
 
i dont see the shock factor here.

a) DD is DD. the end. do it as an FAC holder and lose your FAC
b) just because he is a priest does not make him squeaky clean and counter signatory material!
 
I can't see "barber" on any of those lists....:eek: :lol:

"Doctor" is a bit risky isn't it? You're statistically far more likely to get murdered by your GP (as per Harold Shipman) than get killed in a shooting incident involving legally held firearms! (Funny that many of the public want firearms banned, yet still rush off to the doctor when poorly!)

I use a JP and a clergyman for my referees now. When I got my first shotgun certificate I got my headmaster to sign it. Dad always used to ask the dentist.
 
North Wales Police

Applications for a grant or renewal of a shotgun certificate must be countersigned. Your counter signatory must complete part D of the shotgun application form.

Your counter signatory must be a Member of Parliament, Justice of the Peace, Minister of Religion/Priest or a person of similar standing. It is not exhaustive and other people may satisfy the requirement. Managers, Managing Directors and Company Secretaries are not suitable countersignatories.


West Midlands Police

Acceptable Countersignatories

  • Members of Parliament
  • Minister of religion
  • Doctor
  • Dentist
  • Lawyer
  • Established civil servant
  • Senior bank or building society official
  • Justice of the Peace
  • Lecturer
  • Teacher
  • Accountant
  • Senior manager
Cheshire Constabulary

Your countersignatory must be a Member of Parliament, Justice of the Peace,
Minister of Religion/Priest or a person of similar standing. Below is a list of some
of the occupations considered suitable by Cheshire Constabulary. It is not
exhaustive and other people may satisfy the requirement. Managers, Managing
Directors and Company Secretaries are not suitable Countersignatories.

Solicitor/Lawyer  Legal Executive

Postmaster/Mistress  Dentist

Accountant  Fire Officer

Nurse/Health Visitor  Engineer (qualified)

Surveyor  Teacher

Councillor  Bank or Building Society Official

Established Civil Servant  Local Government Officer

Prison Officer  Retired Police Officer

Veterinary Surgeon  Airline Pilot

Tax Officer  Commissioned Officer in Her
Majesty’s Services.

Architect  Probation Officer
Please note – serving police officers, police employees and Registered Firearms
Dealers cannot act as countersignature


Lets not degrade this to more Priest knocking. The question here isn't of their suitability it is of their standing being so adversely affected by a Driving Disqualification as to not be a suitable Counter Signatory.

I understood that if you were a Company Director it had to be of a company with 20 staff. Not sure how a Barber counted?




I had the pleasure of being used in this manner (wrong words used) i was doing so for a member of this very forum so that he could get his SGC, i was stood in the middle of the Wiltshire Police HQ front desk area and was happy to do so, but i think i have to be totally honest and say even I would have had to think long and hard about signing off papers when it comes to a DD,

I hope this does not offend but im just being honest.

bob.
 
Interesting it says that company directors are unsuitable because I have signed several and never had an issue.

I thought the whole idea of the countersignatory was for it to be someone who's name was in publicly available records. I.e. professional qualifications or companies house.
 
I'm interested in one of the details. "A 3 month DD ban".

I wasn't aware such a thing existed.

As far as I'm aware (and I worked in the road safety area) the minimum ban for a drink driving conviction was 12 months (generally 16, reduced to 12 if a DD course was attended)
 
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Hi Point blank. That was exactly the point I was making. I understood that you needed to have a countersignatory that was verifiable. That was all!

As I said in an earlier post I can perhaps accept that they wouldnt accept a character reference from someone whos judgement had been called into question but to sign a photo? Really?

Matt, according to the newspapers, who had a field day, it was a 12 month ban reduced to 3 months for the course. So a 3 month ban. Slightly over the limit, nobody hurt.

Shows how attitudes towards DD have changed in the last 20 years that this is now considered such a hanging offence that it negates your whole character/status.

If I got a DD ban I expect it would be called into question upon my renewal but not automatically disqualify me from holding a certificate. Doesnt therefore seem equitable that it would disqualify a countersignatory from stating "I hereby certify that this is a current true likeness"
 
The key confusion here is the initial query is about a SGC where the referee has to be of a certain standing in the community, FAC is different and more onus is put on knowing you for a certain period of time with more leeway given to profession etc. To my mind makes little sense and since I went co terminous I think I've only supplied referrees that matched the FAC criteris not SGC
 
Accepting the somewhat tedious need for references/countersignatories wouldn't it be simpler if the requirement was for someone who had known you for whatever years and was themselves free from criminal convictions? Other FAC holders would seem ideal as we are all apparently positively vetted by the the police. atb Tim
 
If I got a DD ban I expect it would be called into question upon my renewal but not automatically disqualify me from holding a certificate.

Why not?
if you are (hypothetically rather than you) irresponsible enough to knowingly endanger yourself and other road users/pedestrians in a truly selfish act.....it does not take a leap of imagination to think of the likelihood of that person shooting whilst drunk as a worse case but being solely in control of firearms.

I know someone first hand who had this happen. DD conviction. ARU visit. the end

having lost friends and had others injured by Drunk Drivers I cannot see why this is still viewed as acceptable crime.
 
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