Rudi on Scenthounds

barongcw

Well-Known Member
Rudi van Kets who as some of you know is the President ofthe Flemish Tracking Society with some 15 years experience has asked me totranslate the following article he wrote in Dutch.
“For a number of months there has been a discussion of theSD about HS and BMH with or without proper papers.
My personal view is as follows:
Dogs have served for hundreds of years and each breed has nowits own characteristics and is bred for one purpose.
During this time breed standards have developed that oneshould respect.
Societies have been created to protect this standard, a kindof heritage. These Societies were the beginning of the breed and developed the characteristicfor that breed. A pointer for pointing, a retriever for retrieving an HS fortracking. As simple as that.
Criteria were developed which must be adhered to. Many stillexist so we must keep these. Regrettably many do not follow these criteria.
To get to the point on scenthounds. The sudden entry ofthese hounds has created a quite a stir, the mean reason being that people didnot know about the breed and how it is used. We on the continent hunt in adifferent way and some handle some dog breeds differently.
Hence the confusion. Scenthounds especially the BMH and HSare as I mentioned earlier a heritage that not only should be protected butthey should also be used in the way that was intended by our predecessors.
But there are people who want to have these hounds withoutrespecting these values. It is in order to protect against these kinds ofpeople that the breed societies are so protective.
It are mainly people whose prime consideration is cash, hardcash. They are not concerned with the standards or values. Not the dogs faultbut those of the greedy breeders. There are plenty of examples.
I did not mince my words. Education can contribute a lot andrespect for those that assist in maintaining the standards as well as not beingswayed by people who drive on the other side of the road. That is theirproblem.
I am of the opinion that people who do their bit to maintainthe standards deserve respect. But I notice it is different. Many seem to thinkthey can do without knowledge or study. (I have my opinions do not confuse mewith the facts).
The market reacts to this lack of knowledge and offersHounds that are not the required standard.
I myself had to wait 3 years for my first hound and it paidoff. I used that time to go to courses and was prepared when the hound came.
I have therefore decided not to enter into discussions withthose that are on fishing trips. That is not the way to transfer knowledge.
The same for organisations like the Federation Canina, acopy that intends to be so real as to confuse people and make them fall into thetrap.
Experience has taught me that the aim for perfection andhonesty towards the breed can create great friendships. It is these friendshipscombined with working together that made tracking such a joy.”
 
You can lead horses to water but we can't make them drink:banghead:my friends.
Then again what do we know?:rolleyes:
There are differences but people,me thinks,do not understand that protection of the integrity of these breeds is to be upheld at all times.Or is it that people don't care they get a internationally renowned dog,one to be cherished,respected and worthy of recognition!
A dog is not a dog every time someone purchases a pup,these scenthounds there are major differences!!
 
Of course the integrity of the scent hounds should be up held as should the integrity of all working dogs. I for one would want a dog with all the correct papers no matter what breed I was buying.
But it seems that we are not aloud to ask questions about the different FCI ’s . How can we understand if we are not given the why’s and wherefores about them. We are just told that one is right and the other is so wrong. Now I’m sure this is correct but we only get to hear one side of the story. Any one who has a different view is shot down in flames. The same when it comes to training or dares to want to train a Labrador or Hpr
So many threads are about HS: how many are in the UK? What percentage of stalkers need one.
We are rapidly losing sight of what’s important in the world of dogs for deer for 99% of the stalkers in the UK.
Now I have great respect for Rudi and yes i have met and talked at length with him. But i would like to hear other peoples views no matter what Country or shooting, dog society they belong to. Much as i admire the scent hounds, and yes i have one myself the world do's not revolve around them.
 
Jagare go onto FCI's website.As you say correct papers.
Or google FCI.Then try to find FCaninaI?!?
As for training methods,more than one way to skin a cat.Easy ways have been found by experienced guys
I have labs trained to deer,hot/cold tracks,so shoot no one down in flames regarding training their dog
Nobody says the world revolves around scenthounds.
 
Quite right Alan, there is room for all, and the choice is for people to make up their own minds as to what they need or want, and not to be told this is how it must be.

John

Of course the integrity of the scent hounds should be up held as should the integrity of all working dogs. I for one would want a dog with all the correct papers no matter what breed I was buying.
But it seems that we are not aloud to ask questions about the different FCI ’s . How can we understand if we are not given the why’s and wherefores about them. We are just told that one is right and the other is so wrong. Now I’m sure this is correct but we only get to hear one side of the story. Any one who has a different view is shot down in flames. The same when it comes to training or dares to want to train a Labrador or Hpr
So many threads are about HS: how many are in the UK? What percentage of stalkers need one.
We are rapidly losing sight of what’s important in the world of dogs for deer for 99% of the stalkers in the UK.
Now I have great respect for Rudi and yes i have met and talked at length with him. But i would like to hear other peoples views no matter what Country or shooting, dog society they belong to. Much as i admire the scent hounds, and yes i have one myself the world do's not revolve around them.
 
Stalker A has been stalking since he was a young lad 50 years ago. He has never done his DSC1, on average he shoots 200 deer a year.

Stalker B has been stalking 6 months, he passed his DSC1 without even seeing a deer, he passed his DSC 2 after he shot 6 deer.

Which is the more qualified to take you out on a stalk??

The reason why I ask this, is a friend of mine has a dog (fair enough not a HS) that has never lost a deer, he shoots 200+ a year. His dog is a mutt and has zero paper work.

Paperwork is not everything. :stir:
 
Stalker A has been stalking since he was a young lad 50 years ago. He has never done his DSC1, on average he shoots 200 deer a year.

Stalker B has been stalking 6 months, he passed his DSC1 without even seeing a deer, he passed his DSC 2 after he shot 6 deer.

Which is the more qualified to take you out on a stalk??

The reason why I ask this, is a friend of mine has a dog (fair enough not a HS) that has never lost a deer, he shoots 200+ a year. His dog is a mutt and has zero paper work.

Paperwork is not everything. :stir:
You are an evil man Eggy;)
 
Stalker A has been stalking since he was a young lad 50 years ago. He has never done his DSC1, on average he shoots 200 deer a year.

Stalker B has been stalking 6 months, he passed his DSC1 without even seeing a deer, he passed his DSC 2 after he shot 6 deer.

Which is the more qualified to take you out on a stalk??

The reason why I ask this, is a friend of mine has a dog (fair enough not a HS) that has never lost a deer, he shoots 200+ a year. His dog is a mutt and has zero paper work.

Paperwork is not everything. :stir:

Couldn't agree more!

Even if you were to buy one of these 'black market' pups, they still have noses. If a chihuahua can find a deer, I'm sure one of these dogs can! Surely?

Personally I think the breed that you're protecting is or is going to be a strain of the breed.
Undoubtably a far superior strain, but a strain nonetheless.

I can see why enthusiasts of the breed would want to stop this from happening, but that's what people do, they take something good and f**k it up!
 
There has been much writing on this subject and if you think about it, there's very little to discuss when logical sense is used. I am in spaniels and trained a lot of them. If I ever change breed it will almost sure be a tracking dog, probably a Dachsbracke , but I keep every option open.
On average with dogs as with children you have to train them , to read , to write, etc..... The same with dogs, very few are born with everything needed. The only way to compare them and try to select the best breeding material is by comparing them, in almost the same conditions. Exams for children , field trials or tests for dogs. To make uniform conditions there is a need for certain rules to compare in about the same circumstances. The FCI is an organistion who makes an effort to do this. Not everything they do is good and their effort to keep their monopoly is strong. I work along FCI rules,but I think that in the coming years their monopoly will come to an end.
They only accept one organisation per country and this will be difficult to maintain. But thats not the subject. Up to now it's the only system that is exepted worldwide.
I saw John's ( Yorkshiredeerstalking) reply and witnessed his dog on a short youtubeclip. Nice work on which I already thought congratulating him before. I've had spaniels that almost did everything natural. Very pleasant , but in general these are the exceptions. Dogs to breed from. The perfect brains and natural ability. Thats what we all want. As long as not all dogs are born this way, continue training , selecting and working your dogs. That's about the only solution we have.
As said before by somebody else. There's a huge diffrence in tracking a stone dead annimal 50/100 metres from the place he's shot or tracking a lightly wounded annimal over 3/4/5 miles in the worst weather conditions and maybe still have to bay the annimal to be killed.
That's were the very well trained dog with great natural ability will outshine any other.
 
There are very few places in England where that is even possible.

There are in Scotland where I live and stalk :D

In fact, I will be putting the word round my neighbours that if ever they fail on finding a beast thought to be wounded, to please give me a call and at least let me try with my HS (free of any charge). That may well build good rleations regardless, especially if you find a beast for them they thought was lost and a welcome to enter their ground any time I want for a beast of mine, even if the law does allows for me to do that here already. Perhaps if this neighbourly approach was made in England some (I accept not all) issues about wounded deer and the law regarding boundaries could be addressed until legislation changes and allows for it...
 
Rudi van Kets who as some of you know is the President ofthe Flemish Tracking Society with some 15 years experience has asked me totranslate the following article he wrote in Dutch.
“For a number of months there has been a discussion of theSD about HS and BMH with or without proper papers.
My personal view is as follows:
Dogs have served for hundreds of years and each breed has nowits own characteristics and is bred for one purpose.
During this time breed standards have developed that oneshould respect.
Societies have been created to protect this standard, a kindof heritage. These Societies were the beginning of the breed and developed the characteristicfor that breed. A pointer for pointing, a retriever for retrieving an HS fortracking. As simple as that.
Criteria were developed which must be adhered to. Many stillexist so we must keep these. Regrettably many do not follow these criteria.
To get to the point on scenthounds. The sudden entry ofthese hounds has created a quite a stir, the mean reason being that people didnot know about the breed and how it is used. We on the continent hunt in adifferent way and some handle some dog breeds differently.
Hence the confusion. Scenthounds especially the BMH and HSare as I mentioned earlier a heritage that not only should be protected butthey should also be used in the way that was intended by our predecessors.
But there are people who want to have these hounds withoutrespecting these values. It is in order to protect against these kinds ofpeople that the breed societies are so protective.
It are mainly people whose prime consideration is cash, hardcash. They are not concerned with the standards or values. Not the dogs faultbut those of the greedy breeders. There are plenty of examples.
I did not mince my words. Education can contribute a lot andrespect for those that assist in maintaining the standards as well as not beingswayed by people who drive on the other side of the road. That is theirproblem.
I am of the opinion that people who do their bit to maintainthe standards deserve respect. But I notice it is different. Many seem to thinkthey can do without knowledge or study. (I have my opinions do not confuse mewith the facts).
The market reacts to this lack of knowledge and offersHounds that are not the required standard.
I myself had to wait 3 years for my first hound and it paidoff. I used that time to go to courses and was prepared when the hound came.
I have therefore decided not to enter into discussions withthose that are on fishing trips. That is not the way to transfer knowledge.
The same for organisations like the Federation Canina, acopy that intends to be so real as to confuse people and make them fall into thetrap.
Experience has taught me that the aim for perfection andhonesty towards the breed can create great friendships. It is these friendshipscombined with working together that made tracking such a joy.”

Baron, as you know I have a dog with no papers, I have no intention of breeding from him only working him! Knowing what I do now my next one hopefully will have the correct paperwork only because I respect the breed history and what a few members are trying to do for the breed. Hind sight is a wonderful thing and maybe I should have waited!! :oops:The facts are its very very difficult to get one with papers in the U.K!:cuckoo: I have always gone to be what I consider to be the best there is for my dogs and my wires all came from Rory Major with absolute certainty they would do whatever I asked of them. Getting a HS in this country is almost impossible! I have to applaud the few are trying to sort this out for the U.K. and would fully support there actions and only wish I could help.

The one thing I can say is the breeder of my dog certainly did not do it for money, he did it for a pup. As for my mongrel being sub standard I would have to disagree, he is without a doubt single minded and focused on cold scents and shows great promise. I have only done 8 tracks with him and he is doing 1000M with no blood only scent shoes and a skin. I now have to ween him of the skin and age the tracks. His ability is all natural with minimal guidance from me.

Lets hope we see more HS in this country going to working homes, brilliant dogs!!
 
I agree 100% deer man. Nice wires you have. They have always been my first love, but I never had the ground to use them on. So I started with spaniels 21 years ago and I think my decision was the good one. You don't buy a HS to shoot grousse.
You have a good dog , no papers. You don't know were the quality comes from. With some luck you know both parents and thats it. Dogs with papers and tested give you an idea what dogs brings certain qualities and gives you the possibilty to breed in a certain direction. The next generation, that's the goal of breeding dogs with papers and test them.
You never would hear me say that a dog with no papers couldn't be a good dog, but what's the next step?
 
I agree 100% deer man. Nice wires you have. They have always been my first love, but I never had the ground to use them on. So I started with spaniels 21 years ago and I think my decision was the good one. You don't buy a HS to shoot grousse.
You have a good dog , no papers. You don't know were the quality comes from. With some luck you know both parents and thats it. Dogs with papers and tested give you an idea what dogs brings certain qualities and gives you the possibilty to breed in a certain direction. The next generation, that's the goal of breeding dogs with papers and test them.
You never would hear me say that a dog with no papers couldn't be a good dog, but what's the next step?
Hales Smut,I am warming to you and exactly the point
I too would never say anybodies dog is not a good worker without seeing it(even then I wouldnt)
However there is more than working ability at question,health and conformation is as important
 
Hales Smut he said he was not breeding from it so there is your answer. There is not next step here it matters not if you dog is off the best stuff if there are not reliable judges and tests then there is not guarantee of a quality dog or bitch to breed off. If my bitch makes the grade and while i wind up a lot i will bred off her with the intentions of keeping one of her off spring. The only papers she will have is her kennel club papers and that at this moment in time will need to do 99% of HS BMH owners.
 
In Belgium every sire and dam and the complete litter is DNA tested. No messing around with false papers, etc.....
An example : " Hales Smut " was a spaniel sire owned by Arthur Cooke , a dog that marked/influenced the breed in a major and possitive way. You see where my name comes from. Take you have the most brilliant HS or whatever breed dog. Just a brilliant dog in any way, loads of natural ability and he can not pass on (reproduce) his qualities. In't that a shame and a major loss for the breed?
 
In Belgium every sire and dam and the complete litter is DNA tested. No messing around with false papers, etc.....
An example : " Hales Smut " was a spaniel sire owned by Arthur Cooke , a dog that marked/influenced the breed in a major and possitive way. You see where my name comes from. Take you have the most brilliant HS or whatever breed dog. Just a brilliant dog in any way, loads of natural ability and he can not pass on (reproduce) his qualities. In't that a shame and a major loss for the breed?
Yes but no,
Are these dogs rigorously health tested,conformation tested and working ability tested?
Dogs from the continent are.The more of these dogs we get in the better for the breed,if we keep to the standards set by the few that are keen to see it go the correct way.All this will take time.Nobody is saying there dog is better than whoevers dog,it is as Widu states on another thread about integrity of the breed and doing things the way breed societies are wanting things done for the benefit of the breed,nothing more or less.
Much like Mr.Cooke did with Hales Smut,a proper springer unlike the crap we get today.
 
Hales Smut,I am warming to you and exactly the point
I too would never say anybodies dog is not a good worker without seeing it(even then I wouldnt)
However there is more than working ability at question,health and conformation is as important

wrong post, apologies
 
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Hales Smut he said he was not breeding from it so there is your answer. There is not next step here it matters not if you dog is off the best stuff if there are not reliable judges and tests then there is not guarantee of a quality dog or bitch to breed off. If my bitch makes the grade and while i wind up a lot i will bred off her with the intentions of keeping one of her off spring. The only papers she will have is her kennel club papers and that at this moment in time will need to do 99% of HS BMH owners.

Very much hope that before you breed from her you will have her tested for HD and checked for confirmation but before you do that I would send a copy of her pedigree to Widu for checking against epilepsy and the like.
 
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