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Thread: Latest American Shootings

  1. #1

    Latest American Shootings

    When I turned on the news this morning in the Ops room my heart sunk when I saw the latest reports of the shootings in Aurora, US. I am a relatively new FAC holder having had my licence for around 8 months and was considering putting in for a variation for another couple of calibres to look forward tousing at the end of my tour and with the intent of using one for my DSC1. Although only having my own FAC for a few months I was brought up torespect firearms and how to use them safely, something I hope to install in myown children when they are ready to shoot. Surely these latest murders in the US musthave a knock on effect on when it comes to forces considering new application sand variations in the UK. Is there anything being done to try and sway the UK public towards supporting a system that seems to for the main stop the kind of atrocity’sthat are happening in the US, where it seems possible for anyone to possess all types of weaponry with little or no restrictions.
    Last edited by flash222004; 21-07-2012 at 08:55.

  2. #2
    It must be a terrible time for all the families concerned, my thoughts are with them.
    Deer stalking and fly fishing opportunities in Devon

  3. #3
    It is a tragic occurrence and our thoughts should be with the family and friends of the injured and deceased.

    It will inevitably fuel the anti-gun debate and you raise valid points but now is probably not the time to raise those issues whilst the victims are still being mourned.

  4. #4
    You touch upon the kind of first thoughts that most people have. Make no mistake it is a terrible, terrible thing and no sane person would think otherwise.

    Without detracting from that last sentence, those very first thoughts are one of the huge problems that legitimate shooters face - because those very thoughts are so powerful and on the face of it persuasive.

    This debate has raged on and will undoubtedly continue to do so. There are no easy or quick answers and seemingly glib phrases can risk the appearance of ignorance or insult. Though much discredited in the media, the cliche ' guns dont kill people, people kill people' stands quite close scrutiny as a truism.

    I believe it was Jeff Cooper ( and there's much that he and I would not agree on ) coined the word 'Hopolophobia' - the fear of an inanimate object. Firearms per se are a machine, a tool, the effect they wreak is entirely at the whim of humans - both in how used and the 'mindset' surrounding them. Very similar parallels can be drawn with cars.

    History and studies show that no amount of legislation/ control - regardless of the subject - whether it be firearms, drugs, cars, alcohol, bankers or dogs - ever effectively tackles the effect that was perceived to be the problem in the first place.

    The so named Gun Culture in the States is a symptom of a wider societal circumstance - not all of it negative.

    The great philosopher ( if quite anti gun ) Terry Pratchett put it rather well ( paraphrasing ) ' we need to rub against and bounce off others people, in this way we are constantly reminded that we are part of a larger whole and reminded of our belonging. If we isolate ourselves, then strange creations come into being and this is not good, sometimes its extremely bad - people forget ... they are people'.

    Aside from the imposition upon many thousands of legitimate shooters - some who become criminalised via administrative error only; the most terrible cost of the majority of firearms legislation is that for nearly a century it has fudged the need to seek a cure, by merely addressing a perceived symptom. In the UK we have a supposedly 'tight control system' - it may well prevent some spur of the moment stupidity but it actually puts us all at greater risk. Because 'society' believes the control works - or if it doesn't, then tightening it will. With that placebo, effort and will does not exist to actually address the root problems. So instead of seeking a truly effective control system ( and guess what - ban all guns isn't it! ) or tackling the criminal use of firearms, drugs, dogs, bankers etc effectively we bimble along - until the next time.

    UK shooters suffer a double whammy - not only are we ostracised/ pilloried but many of us realise we are citizens too! We and our loved ones are just as likely to be walking down the street when the next nutcase with a grudge kicks off.

    I suffered a very close personal loss due to violent crime. An implement was used, never in all the years have I once believed that the implement was to blame or that strict controls on that implement before, then or since would have made one jot of difference to the event.

    Please understand that I am not directing any criticism at you or your post, merely trying to state a point of view to consider.

    As shooters is behoves us all to research the facts and act at all times - by deed, word and thought in a manner that stands the fiercest scrutiny.
    Stalking and Courses
    BASC Approved Trainer & Assessor. Cairngorm National Park Authority Approved Supplier. Supported by Sauer Arms
    See you at Kelso, Scone & Moy 2016

  5. #5
    V - typing away whilst others posted. I agree about respect for the grieving and hope the post above is read in a general context - indeed, I specifically refrained from specific references to any event other than my own.
    Stalking and Courses
    BASC Approved Trainer & Assessor. Cairngorm National Park Authority Approved Supplier. Supported by Sauer Arms
    See you at Kelso, Scone & Moy 2016

  6. #6
    Moray Outfitting, a very well considered and well written post.

    The same emotions of grief and mourning can be associated with victims of road accidents, air crashes, drug and alcohol deaths, dogs, etc, etc, but we continue to fly, drive, drink and own dogs. The debate will continue as to who is to blame for any tragic and untimely death, and people always want someone to blame.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Moray Outfitting View Post
    V - typing away whilst others posted. I agree about respect for the grieving and hope the post above is read in a general context - indeed, I specifically refrained from specific references to any event other than my own.
    You have put the argument across very well in respect of the school of thought that, 'it's not guns that kill people...'.

    I have seen many violent crimes over the years and never once thought that by restricting the ownership of weapons further you would in turn save lives. The reason for that is that with the exception of a tiny fraction of incidents when a gun is used it is done so by a criminal. In other words someone who has access to non controlled weapons regardless of the restrictions placed through legislation.

    I remember about 25 years ago when there was a gun amnesty in Scotland to allow the surrender of illegally held weapons. There was not a queue of criminals lined up at cop shops wanting to hand I their sawn offs and tommy guns. There were in reality a handful of weapons kept back by ex military from some campaign they had been on, or a surviving relative surrendering a weapon found when clearing a property of a deceased relative.

    The problem is, and and always will be, the circumstances where someone who owns a weapon legitimately simply 'flips'. I don't mean to sound disrespectful with such a flippant remark, but that generally without warning is what happens. Dunblane, Hungerford, the recent two incidents in the Noth of England. Could they have been avoided by stricter gun laws? I doubt it because perceived as sane is perceived as sane.There are no scales of sanity to look at for a pass as suitable in gun ownership.

    Should someone wake up one day and want to exact some warped revenge on society, will not having a gun prevent them in doing so? I doubt it. Think back to one example we will all be familiar with, Nicky Reilly...

    They will learn to make a bomb by looking at the Internet or purchase a samurai sword and walk into a nursery and attack defenceless teachers and children, it happened just after Dunblane if you cast your minds back..

    What if they decide to mount the kerb in a transit van and mow down a bunch of kids walking to school? How do we prevent that from happening?

    Tighter legislation will only make those of us who need a weapon to carry out a lawful management job subject to more scrutiny in achieving ownership. It would obviously have a huge impact on the leisure approach to stalking and vermin control.

    It will however not prevent criminals accessing guns. And it will not stop a lunatic whom may have previously had access to weapons carrying out an atrocity, because simply other means will be sought...
    Last edited by jamross65; 21-07-2012 at 10:34.

  8. #8
    It is a tragedy; a horrific act of violence by a very disturbed individual. My heart goes out to the victims' families.

    I thought the interview on Newsnight with the US forensic psychologist was insightful. He referred to what may drive these disturbed individuals. He also highlighted the case of Switzerland as having one of the highest levels of forearm ownership per capita and yet much lower incidence of violent crime per capita than the USA. He said that one factor was the comparatively homogeneous nature of Swiss society compared to the USA where there was much greater inequality, but also highlighted a very different 'wild west' attitude (in some parts of society) in the USA. [Edit: bearing in mind that this was said in the context of the whole interview, not as an isolated remark]

    Regardless, what drove this clearly very disturbed individual is unknown and ultimately individuals must take responsibility for their own actions. As for legal gun owners, it is down to us to show the utmost respect at all times, behave responsibly at all times and hold ourselves to the very highest standards at all times.
    Last edited by JabaliHunter; 21-07-2012 at 10:48.

  9. #9
    Been chatting to a friend of mine who's a retired cop in the city of San Diego, where the shooter came from, he sent me this link of the audio of the immediate they managed to stay so calm, I'll never know...

  10. #10
    Gents, I can only apologise if my post came across as insensitive and it goes without saying that my thoughts are with the families of the victims. Everyone’s comments certainly make interesting reading and aresomething I will take on board to look at the issue from a different angle infuture. It’s just difficult and upsetting at the thought of a sport that I grewup with and am passionate about being marred by the actions of another.
    Last edited by flash222004; 21-07-2012 at 11:00.

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