Basic Standard

6pointer

Well-Known Member
There has been a lot of talk and hot air regards deer dogs lately. The subject has now took a dramatic turn suggesting that if a trained deer dog is needed for say a night licence approval or a FC contract. That standard should be wrote down and checked .
So what would this basic standard look like and who would check all the dog? Baron Wolverine Jamross and the rest please feel free to reply :oops:
 
The basic standard should surely be a dog that can find deer! It may not be able to meet all the criteria laid down by some, but does that matter, if it works for it's handler to his satisfaction should it then need to fulfil other peoples needs? Why try and introduce a level that will require administration and training all of which will need paying for! There are lots of dogs out there that find deer, many of which would be considered unsuitable by the purists.

Just as there are many people that drive and a few that are advanced drivers, there is no need to become advanced drivers but it is normally done for personal satisfaction, why should it not be the same for dogs. If you wish to become an "advanced driver" of your dog then by all means go for it, but if you are happy and content then don't bother.

John
 
6pointer . . .I think the ball rests wholly with the organisations who are stating that you need a 'trained dog'.
As things stand neither SNH or the FC define what a trained dog is . . . I would assume in the simplest of terms, one that can find a deer.

My dog hasn't competed in any trials, won any tests or passed any exams, but can sure as hell find a downed beast in a sea of sitka spruce.

This old chestnut has come up a few times before, and I still fail to see why we as stalkers are desperately trying to burden ourselves with more needless red tape and bureaucracy.
 
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I must say I get a bit bored of all the standards.
if it is not the DSC1/open/fullbore certificate argument its levels of training in dogs.

surely if you have a dog you know if it is trained to find deer or not? you are going to look pretty stupid claiming it is when it cant find it's dinner bowl!
 
There has been a lot of talk and hot air regards deer dogs lately. The subject has now took a dramatic turn suggesting that if a trained deer dog is needed for say a night licence approval or a FC contract. That standard should be wrote down and checked .
So what would this basic standard look like and who would check all the dog? Baron Wolverine Jamross and the rest please feel free to reply :oops:

It seems to me that stalkers, especially in Scotland, are going to get a kind of standard imposed on them in the next few years. A bit like the FC saying you must have passed a DSC before you can stalk their ground.

I would therefor pre-emt the authorities and propose to them simply the basic danish test. A 4-500 yard trail laid with tracking shoes and a little blood, a few 90/180% turns and 3-4 hours old. That should get 90%+ of the deer shot recovered.

If enthousiasts want more difficult tests that would be for later.

As to who should administer it? That is for the locals to decide. The BDS?
 
It seems to me that stalkers, especially in Scotland, are going to get a kind of standard imposed on them in the next few years. A bit like the FC saying you must have passed a DSC before you can stalk their ground.

would therefor pre-emt the authorities and propose to them simply the basic danish test. A 4-500 yard trail laid with tracking shoes and a little blood, a few 90/180% turns and 3-4 hours old. That should get 90%+ of the deer shot recovered.

If enthousiasts want more difficult tests that would be for later.

As to who should administer it? That is for the locals to decide. The BDS?

Interesting what makes you say that? I dont think your basic standard would be far of the mark but 4 hours? That I dont understand the reasoning, surely if this is imposed as you stated then surely the dog will be on the track within 1/2 hour tops.


Nutty
 
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Interesting what makes you say that? I dont think your basic standard would be far of the mark but 4 hours? That I dont understand the reasoning, surely if this is imposed as you stated then surely the dog will be on the track within 1/2 hour tops.


Nutty
No no no.....1/2 hour,gut shot,leg shot,goosed neck shot or head shot,goosed chest shot(brisket)or back shot,now what do people with their trained dogs do on each of the above??
May I add Best Practice is wrong on a few of these....talk later I'm trying to kill stags.
 
No no no.....1/2 hour,gut shot,leg shot,goosed neck shot or head shot,goosed chest shot(brisket)or back shot,now what do people with their trained dogs do on each of the above??
May I add Best Practice is wrong on a few of these....talk later I'm trying to kill stags.

Looking forward to your input Wolverine. Deer dog tracking is something I need to learn. Years ago when I was guiding
if we had a bad shot beast which I couldnt find I would have to go and get the estate keeper who would then run his dogs over the over the area they werent fully trained teacking dogs but got the job done like my old spaniel.
Nutty
 
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Interesting what makes you say that?
Nutty

The autorities north of the border seem to me to be much more pro-active regarding stalking than those down south.

It is but a matter of time before they realise the inconsistency of their position. Talking about "trained dogs" without defining what they mean.
 
I dont think your basic standard would be far of the mark but 4 hours? That I dont understand the reasoning, surely if this is imposed as you stated then surely the dog will be on the track within 1/2 hour tops.


Nutty

I would agree if you have your own dog but if you need help from a neighbour 3 hours pass quickly.

Also the reason the Danes, whose standards I simply copied, choose three hours is that after that time period, depending on the vegetation of course, the hot scent tends to disappear thus forcing the dog to track cold scent which is more difficult.
 
The autorities north of the border seem to me to be much more pro-active regarding stalking than those down south.

It is but a matter of time before they realise the inconsistency of their position. Talking about "trained dogs" without defining what they mean.


Mmmmm I understand what yout saying but I dont think itll happen. Unless there is a faction in the background with a grip on the right ear. Perhaps this is something the F/C may jump on or perhaps another organisation which may benefit finacially from it, that gets back to my initial thought.


Nutty
 
I would agree if you have your own dog but if you need help from a neighbour 3 hours pass quickly.

Also the reason the Danes, whose standards I simply copied, choose three hours is that after that time period, depending on the vegetation of course, the hot scent tends to disappear thus forcing the dog to track cold scent which is more difficult.


Fair comment if you dont have a dog at hand. Ok you copied the Danes standard but were not Danish. But cold scent tracking again I can see its merit. But not everybody may manage to get their dog to that stsndard, I for 1 may struggle to meet that requirement.

Nutty
 
Mmmmm I understand what yout saying but I dont think itll happen. Unless there is a faction in the background with a grip on the right ear. Perhaps this is something the F/C may jump on or perhaps another organisation which may benefit finacially from it, that gets back to my initial thought.






Nutty

The FC will hardly be desperate to jump on the idea . . . they are currently trying to save every last penny in the midst of budget cuts and redundancies.

Having a mandatory 'dog test' that the rangers dog's must pass before night shooting will hardly be embraced with open arms . . . {bearing in mind how many authorisations the FC apply for every year}.
 
My thoughts on this are
3-4 hour old track with little or no blood over 400-500yards
which includes 2 turns and maybe a 20y back track
this is not a difficult achievement and something that will test the handler aswell as the dog
The idea that any dog will do if the handler says it can ,is not really good enough
this I hav had to deal with on a few occassions when the dog was not upto scratch
it almost cost me a deer and I know it cost my mate one
nutty
you say you may not be able to get your dog/s to a required standard
i hav no idea on your own training ability or quality of dogs you may own or work
but it is really not that difficult to get a dog to a simple required standard such as the one my spaniel achieved last weekend, Infact most dogs would be able to do this with a bit of training under their and their handlers collars
if they could not pass such an easy test, then it may not be a bad thing if they were not included in any scheme where a dog and handler were to be relied on
No body would want some one who could not hit a barn door at 20 paces to cull their deer for them would they
 
My thoughts on this are
3-4 hour old track with little or no blood over 400-500yards
which includes 2 turns and maybe a 20y back track
this is not a difficult achievement and something that will test the handler aswell as the dog
The idea that any dog will do if the handler says it can ,is not really good enough
this I hav had to deal with on a few occassions when the dog was not upto scratch
it almost cost me a deer and I know it cost my mate one
nutty
you say you may not be able to get your dog/s to a required standard
i hav no idea on your own training ability or quality of dogs you may own or work
but it is really not that difficult to get a dog to a simple required standard such as the one my spaniel achieved last weekend, Infact most dogs would be able to do this with a bit of training under their and their handlers collars
if they could not pass such an easy test, then it may not be a bad thing if they were not included in any scheme where a dog and handler were to be relied on
No body would want some one who could not hit a barn door at 20 paces to cull their deer for them would they

Fair points Stone. Ive never trained a tracking dog but thatll change in the next 12 months. Ive alot to learn I can get a springer to sit still during a flight of geese on the shore or hide but in turn also hunt for rough shooting at a workable distance how? I learned by my mistakes and that is again whats about to happen again. A big learning curve.


Nuttu
 
The FC will hardly be desperate to jump on the idea . . . they are currently trying to save every last penny in the midst of budget cuts and redundancies.

Having a mandatory 'dog test' that the rangers dog's must pass before night shooting will hardly be embraced with open arms . . . {bearing in mind how many authorisations the FC apply for every year}.

Maybe the FC will be the first to have trained tracking dog and handlers to a standerd because they are a lot more accountable than a private est.

The public may not like the thought of bambie being shot, so if you can show deer welfair is upmost in the minds of the FC then it makes the pill a bit easier to swollow for the public.
Today, 20:50
 
Fair points Stone. Ive never trained a tracking dog but thatll change in the next 12 months. Ive alot to learn I can get a springer to sit still during a flight of geese on the shore or hide but in turn also hunt for rough shooting at a workable distance how? I learned by my mistakes and that is again whats about to happen again. A big learning curve.


Nuttu

to be honest
you don't need to train a dedicated tracking dog, but more train a dog to help assist you find deer
there is a big difference in the final outcome where time and distance is involved but for the initial basic system such as 6 pointer is getting at
most dogs and handlers could achieve this relatively easy with the right guidance
for the purists as they are dubbed
they actually want the same as any one else
to find dead and wounded deer but also to try and get the best out of the dog they hav
bit like the Thousand yard shooter compared to the guy that never shoots above a 100 yards
on another note
i have never been able to get any springer of mine to sit still during a flight...lol
 
Now Richard this where ill differ with you....
Jack of all trades master of none......unless mastered one at a time.I mean dedicated to the deer then moved onto something else.
Nutty we all learn by our mistakes.Best way to learn.
No-one has answered my questions earlier in the thread about what to do with certain types of wounded deer and why the BP guidance is not wholly correct,any answers?
Agree about the purist bit Richard,once at it a few years you do get addicted to it.
 
The deer that were badly shot ?i would go back and re zero my rifle lol. The post was Basic advanced stuff we will leave for the dedicated dog men.;)
 
The deer that were badly shot ?i would go back and re zero my rifle lol. The post was Basic advanced stuff we will leave for the dedicated dog men.;)
Davie that is basic stuff not advanced at all,I would've thought an AW should know all of them;)
Not only that but the handling of those situations for a basic test should be known,lot of use having a dog/handler that can't deal with basic tasks.
 
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