How good a shot are the stalkers in the UK?

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Jagare

Jagare

Well-Known Member
A quote from Stag1933 in the neck shooting thread
It is a fact of life that 8 out of 9 stalkers cannot place 3 consecutive shots on to a one inch bullseye at 100 yards from a good rest with NO stress.

Now i know that all the stalker on SD think they are great shots. Not forgetting those that never miss ,wound a deer. Or the rural snipers in our midst.
I think that Stag1933 has a very valid and fair point. Now I know that you are thinking what the feck is this old fool from Sweden talking about.
I go every chance I get to shoot the running moose range. For every person who shoots well there are nine who shoot very average to down right poor. There was a young man a couple of weeks ago at the range who was dressed in all the hunting gear plus big knife and stool rucksack who looked like he could shoot. I shot 4 series and he followed after me. Fair enough he hit the standing target but when it was moving had a miss every time. Well he shot 5-6 series and then left the range quite happy with his performance.
Then there was the old chap who could not even score on the standing target. They are just two of many equally talented shot who will be out in the forest on the first day of moose hunting tomorrow.

Now I lived in Sussex for 53 years till I moved here. I belonged to a shooting club with deer stalking as its main interest that had regular range days on the Short Siberia and the BSC ranges.
Now the members of this club were just a cross section of the people who stalk in the UK. There were very few good shots in their ranks. 4 or 5 who spent range day after range day year in and year out chasing bullets round the target, twiddling knobs on their scopes. They never had any confidence in there rifles. At least one of these had Dsc2.
One member who’s reloading skills were on the verge of scary. And one, now dead who would have found it hard to hit a barn door at very close range. People who had .375 and .338 rifles that scared the shite out of them. And so on.
So Stag1933 you hit the nail right on the head.
 
A very fair and also very scary assessment. I always tell people when they are on about practising their shooting off a bipod from a stable bench that it is a waste of time. Once you have zeroed the rifle from a bipod etc then do your practice under field conditions, off a post, sticks, leaning against a tree, rolled up jacket, freehand! I quite often get looked at like the old fool that I am. Alan you are quite correct as is Stag1933.

John
 
+1 I remember when i did level one we were told to use only what we would use in the field so rather nieve I took my rifle sleeve and stick As that is what I used when stalking rolled up sleeve under my wrist when on the hill and stick in woods.
some there were using bench rests inside rucksacks and still failed,
Seem to remember I only just scraped through and that was a 4 inch circle.
then of course in the field you have to allow for a degree of nerves
 
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Sorry should have said Non proffesional stalkers most pros use a rifle almost daily so get the practicewhich is essential.
 
JAYB said:
A very fair and also very scary assessment. I always tell people when they are on about practising their shooting off a bipod from a stable bench that it is a waste of time. Once you have zeroed the rifle from a bipod etc then do your practice under field conditions, off a post, sticks, leaning against a tree, rolled up jacket, freehand! I quite often get looked at like the old fool that I am. Alan you are quite correct as is Stag1933.

John
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It really amazes me how many people I come across who will only shoot off a bipod!!

ATB

Tom
 
I've attended a few HCAP shoots, similar to the UK Deer hunter tests.
In some cases the shooting is shocking. I don't mind the odd shot at the wrong target which can happen
but I've seen 50% of the line fail in more than one case. Some shooters underestimate the test, come unprepared and
have not done any practice shot prior. Rifles are often still shooting 2" high at 100 as they zero normally and so on.
I would have not thought the standard as an average was that low.
Of course there were some shots that shot absolutely perfect often had nothing to do with the cost of gear they were using.
edi
 
Its very true in general most seem to think they are better shots than they actually are, and while we should try to be the best we can, you don't actually need to be a great shot to be a stalker, all you need is to be able to consistently put a shot in a 4inch circle at 100yds no great feat of marksmanship. but as JAYB says being able to do it in field conditions is the secret,using the aids he mentioned, but also learning to shoot in various positions, uphill , downhill lying on a steep slope whatever its not always or even often you can get to an ideal position to shoot when a beast presents its self, so you need to practise shooting from a variety of positions.

Jagare, if you lived in the UK for that length of time you will also be aware that taking running shots are frowned upon in the UK so a great many rifle shots here will never have practised doing so, I am not sure that a running target is a fair test of a stalkers shooting ability.

In years of guiding clients I have seen varying degrees of marksmanship, and while I have met some really good shots, I am afraid to say they are in the minority.

Now I am quite sure a lot of these guys could produce a reasonable performance on a target, but its not the same as field conditions.

But I will say it again you don't need to be a great shot to be a good stalker.
 
Every now and then I like to take a rifle out on the range and shoot three shot groups at 25,50,100,150 and 200m.

I use a A4 piece of paper with a dayglo pink post it note on it about two thirds of the way up.

I suppose the post it note is about 2.5 inches square. I take the same point of aim (central) at every range.

What you end up with, with all normal stalking calibres from .222 Rem to .300 Win Mag, is a 12 round group on, or very close to, the post it note with another 3 round group just below it from the 200m shots.

This is a very good confidence booster.

With guests, unless they insist on shooting at a zeroing target, I always get them to shoot a couple of rounds off the bench at 100m at a red oxide painted roe target, as long as these are on the chest and reasonably close together we walk down the range an fire a couple more shots at 40m or so off the sticks and then call it a day as this accurately simulates the type of shots we would tend to encounter.

I always have a chuckle when people talk about 'half inch groups', in reality, even when measured correctly (5 rounds measured exterme outside to outside minus the calibre) this is effectively a ragged one hole group... how many people can realistically do this consistantly, I know I can't and I do a reasonable amount of rifle shooting.

Glyn.
 
It's not just shooting ability that is important but also knowing your capabilities.

Remember, many professionals are also taking part in other wildlife management such as shooting rabbits, long range crow shooting or fox control. All these activities help to hone your skills as a marksman.

I have shot from a young age, starting with an air rifle like many others and progressing up through the ranks. How many others get this opportunity? While government are wanting stalkers both pro and amatuer to raise their skill levels, surely they must put in the infrastructure to allow this to happen, such as rifle ranges.
 
Science often considers 95% as the area beyond which the likelihood of a statistical fluke is low enough to consider that something has been shown to be the case.

So, if you can show me a target with 100 rounds in it and 95 of them are in a 1 inch bull I will start to consider that you can shoot a 1 inch bull with some level of reliability.

Based upon my experience I suspect you would have to expand your 1 inch bull to at least 3 and maybe nearer 5 inches before you would be able to say that most stalkers would be able to hit it at the 95% confidence level from a good rest at 100 yards.
 
In fairness we have some of the best shots in the world here in the UK but without the need for mandatory training and assessment to achieve a set starndard prior to hunting, I'm disappointed to say that we will also carry a high number of the worst shots compared to the rest of Europe at least. I won't compare outside of that.

Everyone though makes a bad shot from time to time :oops:

edit, and in honesty my fc shooting test was like a dog pishing in snow but during the 9 shots on the card (all in and safe) I did have to zero in my rifle for different ammo that was obviously a fair bit lower that my foxing v-max after the first 3 shots. If it's in you win
 
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paul at barony said:
In fairness we have some of the best shots in the world here in the UK but without the need for mandatory training and assessment to achieve a set starndard prior to hunting, I'm disappointed to say that we will also carry a high number of the worst shots compared to the rest of Europe at least. I won't compare outside of that.

Everyone though makes a bad shot from time to time :oops:
Click to expand...

I am not sure that is 100% correct the majority of my clients are European and in general have not found them to be any better shots than the average UK resident.
 
JAYB said:
A very fair and also very scary assessment. I always tell people when they are on about practising their shooting off a bipod from a stable bench that it is a waste of time. Once you have zeroed the rifle from a bipod etc then do your practice under field conditions, off a post, sticks, leaning against a tree, rolled up jacket, freehand! I quite often get looked at like the old fool that I am. Alan you are quite correct as is Stag1933.


John
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+1 Not that much of a fool john, that sums it up short & to the point.

Rgds, Buck.
 
bogtrotter said:
I am not sure that is 100% correct the majority of my clients are European and in general have not found them to be any better shots than the average UK resident.
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to be honest, I've had some continental shockers!

Large clibre stutzen riles with scopes mounted far to high is the worst thing ever!

Not a bipod in sight!

On/off scope mounts, where they are adament that they keep taking the scope off at night????? One guy wanted to use his scope for spying then just clip it intfor the shot!!!!!!!

I don't like to stereo type BUT generally UK clients are far better than continentals!

Scandinavaian clients tend to be far better shots and posses better gear than their cousins to the south!

I await the incoming!!!!!

But I have had to follow up too many deer with a beutifully engraved Bavarian blunderbuss to have much faith! I have yet to see many European hunters embrace good modern kit. Or have I just been unlucky??????
 
bambislayer said:
to be honest, I've had some continental shockers!

Large clibre stutzen riles with scopes mounted far to high is the worst thing ever!

Not a bipod in sight!

On/off scope mounts, where they are adament that they keep taking the scope off at night????? One guy wanted to use his scope for spying then just clip it intfor the shot!!!!!!!

I don't like to stereo type BUT generally UK clients are far better than continentals!

Scandinavaian clients tend to be far better shots and posses better gear than their cousins to the south!

I await the incoming!!!!!

But I have had to follow up too many deer with a beutifully engraved Bavarian blunderbuss to have much faith! I have yet to see many European hunters embrace good modern kit. Or have I just been unlucky??????
Click to expand...

Doesn't it just crease you, when they put the bit of spruce in the mouth, tell you its about respect for the animal

No mention of the fact that you had to finish the poor bu**er off, as it was trying to get away dragging its a**e along the ground, due to them managing to shoot it through both back haunch's.
 
bogtrotter said:
I am not sure that is 100% correct the majority of my clients are European and in general have not found them to be any better shots than the average UK resident.
Click to expand...

mate, Emmerdale is the closest the average uk resident get to the countryside! :-D Know what your saying by L2 work I've done with some guys just wouldn't agree. A few I just won't go out with again. I can't give detaills as it's just not the right thing to do.
 
bogtrotter said:
.

Jagare, if you lived in the UK for that length of time you will also be aware that taking running shots are frowned upon in the UK so a great many rifle shots here will never have practised doing so, I am not sure that a running target is a fair test of a stalkers shooting ability.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with you bogtrotter. But practice at the range does give you confidence in you weapon. I shoot the running target a lot because it is relevent to the type of hunting we do here. Plus its great fun.
But i also wrote about my observations at the range in the UK over 30+ years.
Why would Continental hunters be any better than UK Stalkers? Just because they have passed thier countries hunting exam do's not make them a wonder hunter. Plenty of Sunday hunters through out Europe.
I shoot on a great range with eletronic marking and a range for sighting in. I'm amazed every year how few make use of the facilities the range has to offer
 
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Do you think when you do your DSC1 that shooting in to a 4inch circle is OK, I ask because I have asked people about there rifle's how it shoots (as you do) and some of them say its in a 4inch circle at 100 yards and that's a dead Deer, not sure what to make of that what's your thought's.

Al.
 
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