The 243 may be fine in some localities, but

Muir

Well-Known Member
I won't hunt with anyone using a 243 on the prairies anymore. Here shots generally begin at 200 yards distance. I have seen 4 deer lost in the last two years, all to a .243 at distances greater than 150 yards, and all on large deer. I keep telling these 6mm fanatics that it's a freaking varmint cartridge past 150 yards... at least were mule deer are considered... but, No. I spent way too much time tracking wounded deer this fall. The final nail in the coffin was listening to a recounting of an antelope hunt where the shooter (not the fellow on the phone, but his son) shot an antelope at 250 yards and "...saw blood running down it's side but it just stood there." For better than 5 minutes. When they stood up it ran and they chased it for 3 miles before putting it down. I didn't even have to ask: " A 243, Right??" You bet!

Woodland shooting or smaller deer, OK.
Not in my company anymore. No more hunting with anyone who insists on using a varmint cartridge for deer.
Rant over.~Muir
 
Over here I would not hesitate to use 243 on any deer. My 243 has dropped Red hinds up to 300 yrds and we would shoot Fallow all day long with it. I hunted stags this year with a guy using 243 and all the stags dropped within 20-30 yards. My son uses nothing but 243 and shoots all spiecies of deer in the UK with it at the moment he is stalking Fallow taking shots out to 200 yrds with no problem. I have not however shot Sika with 243 or actually stalked sika for that matter so cant comment on them.
Not having a go at you Muir just relating my experience of stalking with a 243. In the UK it is probably the most popular deer stalking rifle.
Tusker
 
Interesting muir my stalking buddy changed from 243 many years ago for the same reasons as you mentioned I found it also true but at much shorter distances ie 50/60 yards on the bigger species it drilled a small hole through the animal not expanding and giving the full benefit of its power .he went for 7x64 me 308 although I have a 6.5 which I find a great compromise ,I think the 243 a good round but wouldn't go back to one .
norma
 
Nothing wrong with a .243 bullet correctly placed for muntjac and roe, but at the end of the day its having the confidence in your ability and kit. I know a few guides who wont let clients use a .243 on fallow or above, one whom im using soon. Using his 6.5x55 instead!
 
I shot my first Reds with a Sako .243, but didn't stay with the cal for long.............The .243 Winchester is a popular sporting rifle cartridge. Initially designed as a varmint round, it is now more frequently used on varmints such as coyote.
 
Lets face it, a 243 is only a tiny bit larger than a 22.
For those large animals I presume one would choose a tough 100gr bullet that often have low bc values
leading to even less energy at extended ranges combined with little expansion due to lower speed.
Not a great combination.
But hey...main thing is, it doesn't hurt the shooters shoulder.....that would be terrible.

edi
 
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perhaps a lot of those people hunting on the prairie do use a .243, so the statistics will lean towards a greater number of wounded deer - however, that is completely assumptious of me to say of course, and it may be it's not a common chambering at all and what Muir is seeing is in fact that more longer range shot deer of the medium size do not drop fast enough, or at all, when shot with the .243.

I can only draw a few more potential assumptions and then relate a bit to my own experiences.

first I'd argue that the .243 is more prone to bullet drift than some bullets with higher BC that can perhaps also be driven with more downrange energy. That, 'may' be partly the reason - ie. the wounded deer are due to poor shot placement when 'if' hit correctly the .243 with a proper bullet would put the deer down just fine. In this scenario the shooter picked the wrong calibre given the conditions for sure, not necessarily the distance of the size of the quarry.

I say distance and size of quarry - now here in Scotland (and elsewhere) plenty of people shoot big red stags and hinds with the .243 and a normal soft point up to around 300yds. In my opinion based on quite a bit of experience with the .243 and soft points on reds (so a good match), I argue that even with well placed shots at distances from only 100yds, the .243 and the 100g bullet does NOT put the beast down fast enough. I have seen so many times a deer walk, stagger, run, or just stand there with blood pumping out of it for minutes.

I have more confidence in my .243 than my 30-06 (as I've shot a lot more with the .243 and it's a better gun); however, the 30-06 puts deer down in similar situations a lot faster and more ethically. it's not about allowing for non-well placed shots, perfect H/L shots I'm talking about, identical size deer, identical/similar distances, and over and over the 30-06 performs more satisfactorily. Yes, the .243 kills the deer, and yes, 'dead is dead',,,but, I'd rather spend less time tracking deer, less time watching deer bleed out and suffer, and more time on a following clean gralloch, picture, a dram, and next stalk if time allows.

I would also say I have shot a lot of roe deer with the .243, with both SP's and HP's, and both performed admirably at any distance up to 200yds (I don't see the need in shooting further, at least on my grounds); however, I would also like to point out that even with perfectly placed shots, the majority of runners I've had (although not far) have been from shots within 50 yds.

This leads to bullet choice and speed of course. in the above scenario, clearly the fast .243 bullet whether HP or SP have not expanded heavily and frequently not exited (as confirmed on gralloch in many situations), whereas on longer shots there's been entry and exit with a 1" to 2.5" exit wound. however, push distance too far, or the size of the beasts chest cavity (thus increasing hide thickness and bone structure), and you will probably find that maximum distance for getting a sufficient penetrative effect reducing, as does the 'exit' ability of the bullet (even those with high integrity).

With a larger calibre, closer shots will be delivered with a bigger bullet at slower speeds, so are more likely to not explode on the shoulder, expand, and also exit. on longer shots you should see, due to the calibre, higher momentum and knockdown power, with momentum to break through bone, penetrate to the vitals, and hopefully still exit.

I don't want to talk down the .243 as I love mine and use it frequently on roe deer now, it's a beautifully shooting little rifle, and I see it as the mainstay of my portfolio; however, I think Muir is spot on, we'd be ignorant to close our eyes to the obvious.
 
Muir, just in case you haven't seen this, he ends by saying (and i couldn't agree more) good marksmanship is what kills Elk, having just extolled the virtues of the .243
But he is talking about Elk, i wasn't comfortable taking my .243 after Elk when i went to Montana (bull elk more than twice the size of red stag), but just as my 30-06 did the business on the Mule deer i shot, the .243 would have done the same.
So .243 with the correct bullet weight/makeup/hunter will do the business on any deer in the UK.
(I bet this thread goes on and on!)
Cheers
Richard
 
LOL - Richard, yes, if that bullet 'does' hit in the right place, passes between the ribs and the beast does not require a blood trail ;)

you've also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned UK deer. the .243 was designed as a Varmint cartridge, but that classification is based on US Varmint, many of which are about the same size as the roe, munty and the cwd - so in fact, for a large section of the uk deer species it would be more than adequate...for fallow, reds or sika...works,,but IMHO, doesn't work well enough.
 
Here we go again, I like my 243 , killed a lot of deer of all species with it, now I have a 270 as well and love it, I also have a 3030 which has accounted for reds roe and fallow, I have a 22 now let's not go there, it's about knowing your own ability and your gun, fallow at 200+ with a 243 if you have never had a runner you are a better shot than me so carry on, if you take out enough people you will see runners with most calibres , 99% retrievable.
 
Interesting thread as I was speaking to another stalker who told me ( now if the following is correct or not I dont know) so please dont shooting the messenger as such, but here is what he said. I was looking at a calibre for Michelle to purchase for her first rilfe and he recommended a .243 rilfe , he also added that she could easily handle other larger calibres. We were chatting about other calibres and he stated that although .240 / .243 for all UK deer there was actually no scientific basis for this, I was rather puzzled and thought surely there is? What he then said is the only reason .243 was chosen for all UK species was due to the fact when HM The Queen needed a calibre for stalking in Scotland this was the smallest suitable calibre Holland and Holland either had or recommended at that time that would be suitable with low recoil, they then made HRH her gun. Many years later when the current deer laws came into place .243 was chosen as the most suitable calibre due to the fact HRH had used this calibre for deer and it was chosen as the minimum for it would mean she had used a calibre deemed to be humane. Now wether this is true or not I dont know nor do I know if any tests have ever been done to test the suitability of .243 or any other calibre for that matter.
 
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Interesting thread as I was speaking to another stalker who told mew , now if the following is correct or not I dont know , so please dont shooting the messenger as such, but here is what he said. I was looking at a calibre for Michelle to purchase for her first rilfe and he recommended a .243 rilfe , he also added that she could easily handle other larger calibres. We were chatting about other calibres and he stated that although .240 / .243 for all UK deer there was actually no scientific basis for this, I was rather puzzled and thought surely there is? What he then said is the only reason .243 was chosen for all UK species was due to the fact when HM The Queen needed a calibre for stalking in Scotland this was the smallest suitable calibre Holland and Holland either had or recommended at that time, they then made her HRH her gun. Many years later when the current deer laws came into place .243 was chosen as the most suitable calibre due to the fact HRH had used this calibre for deer and it was chosen as the minimum for it would mean she had used a calibre deemed to be humane. Now wether this is true or not I dont know nor do I know if any tests have ever been done to test the suitability of .243 or any other calibre for that matter.

sounds stupid enough to be true:lol:
 
Interesting thread as I was speaking to another stalker who told me ( now if the following is correct or not I dont know) so please dont shooting the messenger as such, but here is what he said. I was looking at a calibre for Michelle to purchase for her first rilfe and he recommended a .243 rilfe , he also added that she could easily handle other larger calibres. We were chatting about other calibres and he stated that although .240 / .243 for all UK deer there was actually no scientific basis for this, I was rather puzzled and thought surely there is? What he then said is the only reason .243 was chosen for all UK species was due to the fact when HM The Queen needed a calibre for stalking in Scotland this was the smallest suitable calibre Holland and Holland either had or recommended at that time that would be suitable with low recoil, they then made HRH her gun. Many years later when the current deer laws came into place .243 was chosen as the most suitable calibre due to the fact HRH had used this calibre for deer and it was chosen as the minimum for it would mean she had used a calibre deemed to be humane. Now wether this is true or not I dont know nor do I know if any tests have ever been done to test the suitability of .243 or any other calibre for that matter.

It may well be true but I wonder. The .243win came out in 1955, H&H already had their own .240 H&H mag that had very similar ballistics that was brought out in 1920. If indeed H&H did produce a rifle for the Queen wouldn't they have been more inclined to use their own cartridge?
I know that BSA actually produced a CF2 for the Duke of Edinburgh in .308win, its in the proof house museum in Birmingham. The story goes that they billed him for the rifle and he sent a bill back for the same amount for development work. There is a tiny scope on this rifle that has only minimal magnification if at all any the likes of which I have never seen before. It resembles a small tubular aperture sight. Does anyone know more about this sight?
 
what was going on this antelope stood for 5 mins after being shoot why was a follow up shot not taken? and i do read of some unreal shots being taken with a 243( true or not i dont know) if you put a 243 bullet in the right place at a sensable distance its down. and for me thats a max of 200 yrds.
 
Interesting thread as I was speaking to another stalker who told me ( now if the following is correct or not I dont know) so please dont shooting the messenger as such, but here is what he said. I was looking at a calibre for Michelle to purchase for her first rilfe and he recommended a .243 rilfe , he also added that she could easily handle other larger calibres. We were chatting about other calibres and he stated that although .240 / .243 for all UK deer there was actually no scientific basis for this, I was rather puzzled and thought surely there is? What he then said is the only reason .243 was chosen for all UK species was due to the fact when HM The Queen needed a calibre for stalking in Scotland this was the smallest suitable calibre Holland and Holland either had or recommended at that time that would be suitable with low recoil, they then made HRH her gun. Many years later when the current deer laws came into place .243 was chosen as the most suitable calibre due to the fact HRH had used this calibre for deer and it was chosen as the minimum for it would mean she had used a calibre deemed to be humane. Now wether this is true or not I dont know nor do I know if any tests have ever been done to test the suitability of .243 or any other calibre for that matter.


From what I know when the legislation was made the .243 was picked purely for the fact that was the most commonly used rifle on the MP's stalking estates.
 
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