HMRC and Beaters

Gazza

Well-Known Member
Have just been reading up on the new HMRC rules coming into effect in April regarding casual labour and cash payments. From what I understand all shoots that hire beaters will be required to electronically submit a list of the names, addresses, dates of birth and national insurance numbers for all beaters along with details of payments. NO doubt HMRC wil be looking for a tax payment on earnings. If a beater is required to attend a shoot on more than one day they will be classed as employed by the shoot and the employer will be required to pay national insurance etc.
I am sure we all know of persons who throughout the season are beating several days a week and a few that would rather that HMRC were not aware of their earnings. I can see this move having at least some effect on the availability of beaters and possibly shooting in general.
Will this effect your shoot or you personally as a beater?
 
It will have no effect on me personally as I do it for the enjoyment of the day, and to give the dog a run.

Who it will have an effect on though is the army of doleys and those on invalidity benifit {who have never had neither a gun nor dog in their hand, or come to think of it, spade, shovel or even pen . . . {flags exempt:lol:} working five days a week and being paid cash in hand over and above their benifits . . . . . Which I work my arse off to pay for in the first place . . . . and usually can't go beating because i'm working, and paying my taxes . . . . . so they can be 'paid' their benifits AND go beating !!!!

GET A REAL JOB !!!

Invalidity = Invalid not Beater !!!

:old:
 
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It could make a big difference to some off the big commercial shoots shooting 4,5 or 6 days weeks, up here they generally rely on dsss as no one else can take that ammount off time off work, mibee they will start paying a fair days pay and some poeple could actually make a bit of a living at it, part tme keepers or other seasonal summer workers etc. It's not bad money for the DSSS when ur rent. bills already paid for
I've always said on commercial shoots beaters/pickers up should be paid a fair wage, for wot can be a 10+ hour day on occasions, i wouldnae expect anyone to work for me for 35 quid a day, bloody insult really, but we still do it:cuckoo: and take time off ur day job to do it. We must be off our heads

As for normal beaters doing 10-20 days(every sat-every 2nd sat) it shouldnae make much difference if u keep recipts for dog expenses (food,vet bills) plus shooting gear waterproofs u won't be making a profit anyway so not due any tax (dunno how NI works as been SE all my life) I do put my beating money throu tax as i claim all my exp out the business for dogs and gear.

Norma that shounds a good way round it, if not coming out shoot funds more a 'donation' than pay althou i'm no accountant.

No doubt be some big changes (althou probably only in clever accountancy) but hopefully for the better and hopefully drive pay up a bit.
 
It will have no effect on me personally as I do it for the enjoyment of the day, and to give the dog a run.

Who it will have an effect on though is the army of doleys and those on invalidity benifit {who have never had neither a gun nor dog in their hand, or come to think of it, spade, shovel or even pen . . . flags exempt:lol:} working five days a weeks and being paid cash in hand over and above their benifits . . . . .

Which I work my arse off to pay for in the first place . . . . and usually can't go beating because i'm working, paying my taxes . . . . . so they can be 'paid' their benifits AND go beating !!!!

GET A REAL JOB !!!

Invalidity = Invalid not Beater !!!

:old:

a fair few of ours are pensioners does the same apply?

They will get hit as will I but not to any real amount as its just once or twice a week, but we shall see how many comply and how many get the cash from elsewhere to pay beaters.
 
It will have no effect on me personally as I do it for the enjoyment of the day, and to give the dog a run.

Who it will have an effect on though is the army of doleys and those on invalidity benifit {who have never had neither a gun nor dog in their hand, or come to think of it, spade, shovel or even pen . . . flags exempt:lol:} working five days a weeks and being paid cash in hand over and above their benifits . . . . .

Which I work my arse off to pay for in the first place . . . . and usually can't go beating because i'm working, paying my taxes . . . . . so they can be 'paid' their benifits AND go beating !!!!

GET A REAL JOB !!!

Invalidity = Invalid not Beater !!!

:old:

Yes agreed that there are many who go beating just for the enjoyment but lets face it, as you point out there is a good few who are on the dole/invalidity and do look to beating money as a bit untraceable extra. Not for one second am I saying I agree with this but without this "army of doleys" what effect does it have on shooting. Apparently the persons responsible for the shoot can/will be fined if they do not comply.
As far as I can see Norma even if the guns on the day have a collection to pay the beaters they are being paid by and from the shoot.
I would think that most of the big concerns are VAT registered so it will not be difficult to track down shoots. Again most shoots give their beaters a list of dates at the beginning of the season. This would seem to imply that the beaters are employed over that period and the shoot will require to pay national insurance etc. I suppose in theory a beater could end up being employed by several shoots.
Self employed as a beater could be a way but according to the article I have read the minute you receive instructions as to what is required I.E. a keeper asking you to beat a certain area you are employed and not self employed.
Worth reading up on if you run a shoot and pay beaters.
 
a fair few of ours are pensioners does the same apply?

They will get hit as will I but not to any real amount as its just once or twice a week, but we shall see how many comply and how many get the cash from elsewhere to pay beaters.


Hi al4x1,

My post was aimed squarely at the malingerers who have never worked, nor have any intention of ever doing so, certainly not at pensioners or anyone else whom has lost their job or became ill or injured.

Its the malingerers that get up my nose.
 
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I know what you mean Cadex though i have to say most who can't be bothered to work can't be bothered to Beat for well under the minimum wage its too much like hard work. Thats a possible point though once it goes legitimate will it highlight the fact most pay well under minimum wage, and bearing in mind we benefit from a days shooting at the end the possible issues are fairly endless.
 
the minute you receive instructions as to what is required I.E. a keeper asking you to beat a certain area you are employed and not self employed.

I suspect there will be any number of horror stories being bandied about. If simply 'receiving instructions' constituted 'employment' then no one, (not even solicitors) would be self-employed. Given the hamfisted way much of our legislation is cobbled together these days it will all come down to case law. Probably sooner rather than later as HMRC will undoubtedly be quite happy to turn over a small rural enterprise rather than try clawing back X£ billions of unpaid VAT from Vodaphone.
 
Have just been reading up on the new HMRC rules coming into effect in April regarding casual labour and cash payments. From what I understand all shoots that hire beaters will be required to electronically submit a list of the names, addresses, dates of birth and national insurance numbers for all beaters along with details of payments. NO doubt HMRC wil be looking for a tax payment on earnings. If a beater is required to attend a shoot on more than one day they will be classed as employed by the shoot and the employer will be required to pay national insurance etc.


I can't see how they can possibly enforce this or expect it to be the case.

A beater who does 12 weekends a year is unlikely to be living only off those earnings or solely working for the shoot in which case they are self employed by the HMRC's own guidelines
With an £8-£10k personal tax threshold anyone can easily soak up cash payments over a season and submit them with a personal tax return.
to do so or not is their responsibility.

Any business looking to offset their costs (i.e. petty cash payments) will need to include details of expenditure with their tax return, that would automatically include details of payments made otherwise they (the shoot) would incur full liability on that money.

As an employer I pay people both under PAYE and under self employment
it is not my responsibility to do HMRC's job for them.
invoices we receive often have very little info on them. company or individual name, bank account details etc

I have no more responsibility to submit personal details of who I pay any more than a shoot or estate
 
It will have no effect on me personally as I do it for the enjoyment of the day, and to give the dog a run.

Who it will have an effect on though is the army of doleys and those on invalidity benifit {who have never had neither a gun nor dog in their hand, or come to think of it, spade, shovel or even pen . . . flags exempt:lol:} working five days a weeks and being paid cash in hand over and above their benifits . . . . . Which I work my arse off to pay for in the first place . . . . and usually can't go beating because i'm working, and paying my taxes . . . . . so they can be 'paid' their benifits AND go beating !!!!

GET A REAL JOB !!!

Invalidity = Invalid not Beater !!!

:old:

I couldn't agree more!

Very large commercial shoot near me, which I have on occasion loaded and picked up on. Always on my days off work or when I would take holidays. The 'regular' beating team is exactly as you described. No interest in shooting, not a dog between them, except perhaps a terrier, and I get the impression they are only interested in earning beer money given the state of them the following morning. I believe they will get paid petrol money as well and share lifts to ensure they are always available.. Now I am far from being a snob, but when they turn up in shell suits and trainers at the partridges you have to wonder how desperate these large shoots are...

If the wage is £35 per day, and they will be out from September until about mid December probably at least 4 or 5 days a week around me, that adds up to a healthy wee earner throughout the season, on top of their benefits, certainly enough to buy themselves a pair of cheap green wellies, or ex-army boots and some waterproofs.

I was under the impression that the shoot paid the tax and incorporated that somehow into the days payment but took it off before you even saw it, leaving you wit the agreed amount for picking up, loading or beating.
 
Last time I went beating, some 15 years ago, I think almost all the beaters were on the dole or on the "sick". I doubt much has changed.

All that will happen is that the guns will pay in cash and some of this will go straight to the beaters, I suspect this has always been the way.

Any one who works regularly for any organisation is an employee unless they work un aided and un guided with their own tools and equipment, so all shoots should have EL cover.
 
I was under the impression that the shoot paid the tax and incorporated that somehow into the days payment but took it off before you even saw it, leaving you wit the agreed amount for picking up, loading or beating.

I may be misreading that...
they pay the income tax and NI on the amount that is paid to the beaters?

how can they if they don't have them on the books as employees? each employees tax code impacts the tax levels
if they are on the PAYE book then they can't claim employment as the Jobcentre talk to the tax office.

any shoot that is either paying Corporation tax on money paid to beaters or is paying NI/Income tax in advance of paying beaters probably needs a new accountant!
 
I go beating with my son on saturdays.Hes at college and i give him my money to top his up for a bit of spends.We started going because he wanted a saturday job a few years ago.I enjoy getting out in the fresh air and the keeper is a mate who i shoot with anyway.
Most of the others are pensioners out to stay fit and top up their pensions.Some are housewives, and keepers from other estates giving each other a lift up.A smattering of farm hands.I`m sure some are on benefits and dont say, but no obvious dolemongers in shell suits.
I would think costs will be passed on to the guns, making a days driven more expensive.
 
U honestly wouldnae believe some off the dolelys that turn up, seen boys on the grouse in a pair off trainers and either jeans or shell suit, no matter wot weather; the best 1 i ever seen was seeing a regular doley turn up for a hill partridge day in neoprene chest waders, is was p***ing it down. Bet he was glad they changed it to pheaas that day, still wouldnae be nice as there pheas drives are pretty steep. That estate sends 2 110's every shoot day up the valley to a couple off towns to fill with the doley's.
While it is wrong they are atleast working for money and it can be a long hard day on that estate, althou in my opinion the taxman is subsidising both them and the commercial shoot as it couldnae operate without them
 
Many years ago i picked up at a big shooting estate. They required your full name and address and the money you received was already taxed!!! If you were tax exempted.pensioner etc. they provided you with a reclaim form completed by them.!!!!!
 
Now, as those of us who ARE self-employed know, you can if S/E claim the cost of getting to and from the place where you are carrying out the service. So in theory HMRC could end up with "egg on face" as if you cost of being a S/E beater exceed the income then you can offset that loss against tax from your paid employment.

The "test" of if a beater is S/E or not is "degree of control" and in particular can you send a substitute. That is if YOU cannot turn up can you send your son, mate from down the pub, etc., etc..

Now clearly if you are employed as a nurse or doctor or cashier in a bank you can't just send someone else. The "degree of control" test. But beating? Yes of course you could send someone else.
 
On the last few jobs, where I've had beaters. We've declared all beaters wages and had them give details, we've paid tax an ni, bit of a pain. But in a large commercial enterprise, why would you want to cross the tax man? It's up to the individual to claim back tax etc?
in all cases we paid min wage +
 
one of our beaters is a lawyer, I must ask him.

the shoot dont pay the beaters, we have a whip round and its shared out.
 
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