Wanted: 100 meter range, West Dorset, tomorrow morning?!

Tackleberry270

Well-Known Member
Its a long shot (scuse the pun). I offered a Newbie to the site a chance to shoot a target tomorrow morning(giving me a chance to chrono some handloads at the same time) but plans to use my usual range have been scuppered by a horsey event.

Would anyone with a suitable safe shooting area in West Dorset be willing to host us?

I am ex mil and NRA RCO qualified so you don't have to worry where safety is concerned.

If I can return the favor with pre DSC2 coaching or Witnessing I would be more than willing to do this (although it would have to be on your own permission).


Thanks folks.
 
Its a long shot (scuse the pun). I offered a Newbie to the site a chance to shoot a target tomorrow morning(giving me a chance to chrono some handloads at the same time) but plans to use my usual range have been scuppered by a horsey event.

Would anyone with a suitable safe shooting area in West Dorset be willing to host us?

I am ex mil and NRA RCO qualified so you don't have to worry where safety is concerned.

If I can return the favor with pre DSC2 coaching or Witnessing I would be more than willing to do this (although it would have to be on your own permission).


Thanks folks.

On reading this I tried to imagine circumstances where a FAC Holder could hand over a rifle to a 'newbie' to have a bang ... (my assumption here) this person being a novice or a complete beginner ... on someone else's land. This would be land on which the FAC holder didn't hold the sporting rights - and so - not have the usual rights to zero his rifle there.

Then I wondered what 'extra' assurance would be given by someone who was ex-military and had passed his NRA RCO qualification at some point (this lapses after 6 years).

I looked at the estate rifle 'exemption' clause which many think is in general use. This seems to apply to visiting foreign stalkers on sporting estates in Scotland e.g. say in the situation where the estate employed stalker gets the guest into a shootable position from a stag - then hands the rifle over for the shot. Whatever it's purpose, it doesn't seem applicable in the OP's situation.

Then I looked at the standard Firearms Act - Conditions.

The newbie couldn't claim to be shooting for any sporting purpose on land. Only the FAC holder could claim to be there for zeroing or practice, and would be authorised to do so on his FAC.

Even if the newbie could claim to be 'Target Shooting' - this is only permissible on Approved Ranges as an HOAC member. For this purpose, no shooting is allowed over private land unless an open certificate is held by the individual. Possession of expanding ammunition is also prohibited for target shooters, and for target shooting use.

I've pasted the relevant bits below. Just where does someone get the notion that he can take out a stranger, hand him a high-velocity rifle (possibly loaded with prohibited ammunition), and allow him to shoot? Other people, even non-shooters, may read this, and think that there's some sort of free for all to take anyone out as long as you've got ground of your own. This has been posted by a DSC2 holder which I'm not, so if I've missed something please put me on the right track.

Borrowed rifles on private premises

6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a personto borrow a rifle from the occupier
of privatepremises and to use it on those premises in the presence of either the
occupier ortheir servant without holding a firearmcertificate in respect of that rifle.

It should benoted that this gives slightly more flexibility in the use of a borrowed riflethan is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14,in that the
borrowedrifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, theoccupier and/or their servant must hold a firearm certificate in respect of
the firearmbeing used, and the borrower, who must be accompanied by the certificate
holder(whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditions
of thecertificate. These may include a safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,
territorialrestrictions. Section 57(4) of the 1968 Act defines “premises” as including any
land. Theeffect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate toborrow
and use arifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under
the age of17 or to other types of firearm.

There is nonotification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances.
A borrowedrifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or
“landowner’s”firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law
but isgenerally interpreted as being within sight and earshot.

6.17 Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides fora person borrowing a rifle in accordance
with section16(1) of the 1988 Act to purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle,and to have it in their possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed,without holding a certificate. The borrower’s possession of the ammunition mustcomply with the conditions on the certificate of the person in whose presence theyare and the amount of ammunition borrowed must not exceed that which the certificateholder is authorised to have in their possession at that time. It should be notedthat the borrower may only take possession of the ammunition during the periodof the loan of the rifle at which time they will be in the presence of thecertificate holder

(FIREARMS CERTIFICATE CONDITIONS)


Quarry Shooting (for vermin, fox or deer)

The *calibreRIFLE/COMBINATION/SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND MODERATOR and ammunition shall be used for shootingvermin and ground game/fox/deer (delete as appropriate) and for zeroing onranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area wherethe land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority toshoot.

Target Shooting

The *calibre*RIFLE/MUZZLELOADING PISTOL/REVOLVER and ammunition shall be used for target shooting,and only whilst a member of *club1, on ranges where a safety certificate forthat class of firearm has been issued by the Ministry of Defence.

Insert name of Home Office Approved Shooting Club.


Expanding Ammunition

The certificate holder may possess, purchaseor acquire expanding ammunition,
or themissiles of such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and
use only inconnection with:

(a) thelawful shooting of deer;

(b) theshooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, otherwildlife;

(c) thehumane killing of animals;

(d)the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.
 
Zeroing (rather than target shooting) with expanding ammo is ok on most peoples certificates. That's one point countered. Rest of the challenges I will leave to someone else to contest.
 
As well as zeroing you are allowed to practice & train with expanding ammo that you have been authorised to possess for sporting purposes, this may be on a paper target. atb Tim
 
Before this goes off on a tangent if anyone would be kind enough to accomodate then just send me a PM.


In the mean time...... enjoy the discussion.
 
give the chap a break he was only trying to help out a newbie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
It is probably worth noting. Apart from the obvious assumptions made by Sinistral (which are wrong), It is common practice to see a 'new' client shoot a zeroing target, with estate rifle, before heading out for live quarry. This can't always be carried out on the same estate as the stalking is taking place and it would be naive to think that cooperation between stalkers does not go on to accomodate this.

I am always willing to learn!

Estate rifle clause is not limited to Scotland.
 
Tack,

I'd love to help, but regret that I am too far away for any offer to be of use.

I'm sure that if you were to come to my ground on my invite I would ensure that implicitly, if not explicitly, my invitation as the sporting rights holder conferred the same rights to you during your visit - or what's the point? Does anyone visiting another's ground (under the correct FAC conditions) without this become a poacher then? I'm pretty sure that direct supervision, of the sort you were no doubt ensuring in your kind offer to a newcomer to the sport, covers any perceived 'misuse' in Sinistral's post - although perhaps you should allow the 'newbie to have a bang' at a live creature. I'm also sure that your keenness to show that you have experience of managing people while shooting can only be a good thing when making a request of this sort - one I have to say is one I think this site is all about. Networking and encouraging new people to our sport is key to its ongoing success and I applaud your kindness.


@Sinistral - have you had a bad day at work?!:gheyfight: I would hope that in reading your post with fresh eyes and a calm disposition, you may feel you've over-reacted a little. I would suggest some of the assumptions you've made may not be correct in the application of the law and that your insinuations are - well let's just leave it as inappropriate.

As Tack says - hopefully someone will help him via PM, while this thread goes off on a wild tangent.

(Ducks for cover)
 
@Sinistral - have you had a bad day at work?!:gheyfight: I would hope that in reading your post with fresh eyes and a calm disposition, you may feel you've over-reacted a little. I would suggest some of the assumptions you've made may not be correct in the application of the law and that your insinuations are - well let's just leave it as inappropriate.

Bless you, Eric but I haven't even momentarily lost my marbles, or sense of humour. It's not clear to me what insinuations you refer to :lol:.

I'm all for encouraging newcomers into shooting, and probably do more than most to do this within the law. There are other routes into shooting, but this is not an approved or legal one. The 'estate rifle' exemption doesn't cover this activity at all.

My point is that the Op's plan/idea however well-intentioned sidesteps the firearms controls, and puts his FAC in jeopardy. It is extremely risky to offer a 'helping hand' to a novice in this way, and I'm sure this would lead to automatic revocation if discovered. It doesn't matter what the level of supervision is, and I'm surprised that others think this is relevant somehow. If that mattered then what's the point in the entire system of the firearms enquiry process, licensing, training, mentoring, CRO checks, public safety considerations, and all the other pieces of the jigsaw in place?

Let me deal with the expanding ammunition issue. This is Section 1, and licensed to the FAC holder only. Obviously training, testing, and zeroing with this (not target shooting, or competition use of course) are ancillary to the 4 permitted uses, but possession and use lies with the FAC holder alone.
It's just as serious an offence for the novice to be given possession of this by a FAC holder as it is for him to hold ammunition in a calibre not on his ticket.
 
In the original post Tackleberry does not specify the calibre or type of weapon and so he could be referring to a sub 12ft lb airgun and therefore be entirely within the law.
 
Bless you, Eric but I haven't even momentarily lost my marbles, or sense of humour. It's not clear to me what insinuations you refer to :lol:.

I'm all for encouraging newcomers into shooting, and probably do more than most to do this within the law. There are other routes into shooting, but this is not an approved or legal one. The 'estate rifle' exemption doesn't cover this activity at all.

My point is that the Op's plan/idea however well-intentioned sidesteps the firearms controls, and puts his FAC in jeopardy. It is extremely risky to offer a 'helping hand' to a novice in this way, and I'm sure this would lead to automatic revocation if discovered. It doesn't matter what the level of supervision is, and I'm surprised that others think this is relevant somehow. If that mattered then what's the point in the entire system of the firearms enquiry process, licensing, training, mentoring, CRO checks, public safety considerations, and all the other pieces of the jigsaw in place?

Let me deal with the expanding ammunition issue. This is Section 1, and licensed to the FAC holder only. Obviously training, testing, and zeroing with this (not target shooting, or competition use of course) are ancillary to the 4 permitted uses, but possession and use lies with the FAC holder alone.
It's just as serious an offence for the novice to be given possession of this by a FAC holder as it is for him to hold ammunition in a calibre not on his ticket.

+1

I've lost count of the number of people who I've had through the range who assume they can let anyone 'have a shot or two' with their rifle with expanding ammunition and to whom I've had to explain the law. It's all well and good when everything goes right but God help us all when something goes wrong and the Estate Rifle rule is legally tested. To me it's not worth it with a commercial range but who knows what goes on elsewhere?

TB, I'd be happy to oblige within the law.

HME.
 
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+1

I've lost count of the number of people who I've had through the range who assume they can let anyone 'have a shot or two' with their rifle with expanding ammunition and to whom I've had to explain the law. It's all well and good when everything goes right but God help us all when something goes wrong and the Estate Rifle rule is legally tested. To me it's not worth it with a commercial range but who knows what goes on elsewhere?

TB, I'd be happy to oblige within the law.

HME.

Thanks for the offer.
 
If you are the stalking rights holder of the land or indeed have been appointed an estate servant by the stalking rights holder you are quite within your rights to allow a guest under your supervision to zero the estate rifle.

If they own their own rifle provided they meet their own certificate conditions they can zero. I don't see the issue?

All the best

Rich
 
I think what everybody is frightened of is the Police Officer standing behind them looking over their shoulder every time they go stalking to make sure everybody is whiter than white where the law is concerened.
I don't have one but from what I've read on here sometimes I reckon nearly every other stalker does.
I'm not advocating that anybody should break the law but common sense, in most cases, tells you what you can and cannot do without causing any harm ;)
 
If you are on land that you have been given permission to shoot, in legal terms, you are the 'occupier' or 'servant' (payment being any quarry you shoot) so therefore, it is ok to allow another person to use a rifle on your ticket in accordance with YOUR Licencing conditions.

'In connection with' as far as expanding ammo goes, zeroing or 'testing' is IN CONNECTION WITH

To put it in as simple terms as possible,
if YOU have permission from the landowner, to shoot his/her land, and the CONDITIONS on YOUR ticket allow YOU to zero, test or otherwise use YOUR rifle whilst 'occupying' that said land, then ANYBODY (who is not a 'prohibited' person) can use YOUR rifle, and YOUR ammunition as long as they comply with the CONDITIONS on YOUR ticket and they are SUPERVISED by YOU.

Wether they be shooting at tin cans, red deer, paper targets or otherwise, if it's legal for YOU, it's legal for THEM, under YOUR DIRECT SUPERVISION.

possesion of ammo 'off ticket' , while you are in direct supervision, even if it is in the other persons pocket, it is still in YOUR possesion. It becomes an issue if your mate keeps hold of it AFTER you go seperate ways


rulings on 'commercial ranges' are different as you are not the occupier, unless you don't 'sign on' but have permission to use the land other than as a 'range'
 
I'd just like to add
re 'estate rifle' and 'expanding ammo'

if the ammo is for the certificate holders use ONLY, how can an estate rifle be zero'd, tested before a stalk ? You can't use fmj for this as the ballistics will be different to the (legally required for deer) expanding ammo.
 
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