going lead free?

finnbear270

Well-Known Member
Just been having a conversation with a friend up North a ways a bit, a little about this lead free bullet business cropped up, cutting to the chase..... Anybody have any knowledge of what the Lead free solder is composed of,? (the stuff Plumbers have to use now on potable water systems)... similar in weight to Lead?:idea:
 
tin (sn ) silver (ag) copper (CU) may also have zinc and a few other exotic metals for different applications.( we will not be seeing cheap lead free bullets thats for sure.)
 
Fight "lead free" legislation tooth and nail. California didn't, now they can't use .22LRs in large portions of the state and green components are very expensive with a thin selection.~Muir
 
Maybe its time to contact SACS-BASC-NGO etc to see if they are going to fight and campaign against this
after all do we want a ban like lead shot over wetlands that was imposed on us with very litttle evidence and was pushed by Anti shooting groups it will be another nail in the coffin for shooting and once passed in scotland will then become law for the rest of us in the UK and probably be extended to target shooting.
United We Stand Divided We Fall.
 
Maybe its time to contact SACS-BASC-NGO etc to see if they are going to fight and campaign against this
after all do we want a ban like lead shot over wetlands that was imposed on us with very litttle evidence and was pushed by Anti shooting groups it will be another nail in the coffin for shooting and once passed in scotland will then become law for the rest of us in the UK and probably be extended to target shooting.
United We Stand Divided We Fall.

Many of us did that six months ago Pat including lobbying M.P.s, E.M.P. and assembly members.
 
+1 on that
go to any game show and get in there faces be it basc or other we need them to fight for us and not roll over this time

Fight "lead free" legislation tooth and nail. California didn't, now they can't use .22LRs in large portions of the state and green components are very expensive with a thin selection.~Muir
 
best way to reduce the number of the gun owning population is to ban lead bullets and shot and to help it along by throwing in some good old health and safety. the fc have started this in scotland with all the talk about lead fragments in shot deer. how did we ever live before health and safety i dont know.
 
Many of us did that six months ago Pat including lobbying M.P.s, E.M.P. and assembly members.
8x57 that maybe the case so what was the outcome to all your lobbying and what are the Pro Shooting groups doing about it?
lets hope abit more than in the past.
 
Countryside Alliance are working hard on this issue but I fear the others seem to be a bit apathetic. Without any doubt the lead ban would be the most serious threat to shooting overall there has been in this country. It would have a tremendous impact on shooting sports across the board, I am amazed at the reluctance shown by some shooters and organisations to fight this threat.
 
8x57 that maybe the case so what was the outcome to all your lobbying and what are the Pro Shooting groups doing about it?
lets hope abit more than in the past.

I received lengthy replies from both my assembly member and european parliament member stating that while certain groups were proposing legislation nothing definate was on the cards for some time and that they were investigating and watching the situation carefully. I had a responce from my M.P. that basically said nothing and was not much more than an ackowledgement. I think all the shooting organisations are switched on to the possible threat and are approaching it from slightly different angles and urgency. I am sure that if you look back through the site you will find previous postings on the subject. Once again it's not a matter of leaving everything to your shooting organisation it is up to us to do something about it. We have to stay eternally vigilant to any threats to shooting and actualy do something ourselves. Just look at what happened with W.H. Smith and The Sun newspaper when shooters actually get off their backsides and complain.
 
I use Barnes all copper bullets some and like them a good bit !

HOWEVER .................................................................... !

I also cast my own bullets from LEAD and have a small fortune tied up in molds and the other stuff that goes with the entire progect . Hence I would be a good bit ****ed off if that came about here in Virginia . Truth be known I'd more then likely break the law if that law came to pass in my state .
 
Some of did indeed raise the question with our MP's.
I did this and still receive e-mails updating the work being done, or not.
The latest one is quoted below.

Dear Countryside Campaigner,
Please accept my apologies for this update being sent from my assistant Adam Waters' e-mail account on Wednesday. I would like to thank those of you who have already responded - your comments have been very helpful. If anybody has any further questions or comments please send them to this e-mail account: vicky.ford@europarl.europa.eu.
Last year you wrote to me regarding your concerns about any potential ban on lead shot in the EU. Please excuse this mass email but I thought you may appreciate an update. I continue to believe that an outright ban by the EU on the use of lead shot would be inappropriate, unnecessary and have potentially very damaging consequences on our rural environment.
At this time there is no proposal for an EU ban on the table. There is an investigation taking place regarding a possible restriction; this investigation has involved a formal consultation and many members of hunting organisations from across Europe have submitted evidence to that consultation. I am told that the conclusions from the consultation will be made public in the summer. I am still very hopeful that a full ban on use of lead shot outside wetland areas will not be proposed by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) and I am working with my colleague Julie Girling MEP for the West Country who monitors the ECHA closely. Any proposal from ECHA cannot become law if enough MEPs object.
Last week I attended a seminar and debate in the European Parliament organised by the Parliament's Intergroup on Sustainable Hunting. It was not particularly well attended by Members from across Europe although there was at least one MEP present from France, Spain, Denmark and Italy. Many others did send assistants.
There were three expert speakers:
Professor Javier Perez Trujillo, an expert in Materials Science from the University of Madrid
Mario Ge, Secretary General of the Association of European Manufacturers of Sporting Ammunition (AFEMS)
Angus Middleton, Secretary General of FACE, the European Association for Hunting and Conservation
Mario Ge used the slogan "Lead in Ammo is not the Devil" to explain that changing ammunition types is not a simple issue. For example, there is no other well known material for use in ammunition which has a comparable performance. We were told that there are many different manufacturers but that it is difficult to come up with innovative new materials as ballistic properties, price and weapon safety are substantial issues. Furthermore many hunters do not like to change from one ammunition manufacturer to another - let alone to different materials - as performance can differ even when using the same materials. He pointed out that lead is also used in many other areas (batteries, glass, ceramics) and that the European Food Safety Authority has not reported worrying dangers from lead from ammunition.
Angus Middleton's presentation was praised for being extremely well-balanced and helpful. He pointed out that whilst everyone agrees that lead is highly toxic this is also a highly complex issue. FACE supports the phase out of lead shot in Wetland areas, due to its impact on waterfowl, but is not so concerned regarding its impact on other birds (for example lead shot is known to have been fatal to white tailed eagles but the population of this species is growing strongly). On the issue of Food Safety, he quoted many reports from the European Food Safety Agency concluding that often it is not the food with the highest lead levels which has the greatest impact but rather food which is consumed more. A recent Norwegian survey of hunter families showed that whilst many had high levels of lead in their blood none of these were considered so high to be harmful. Angus also discussed the use of non-lead alternatives and the impact on firearms. Again a change from lead could have substantial safety issues. For example using steel shot safely requires the hunter to open the weapon's choke, but many Eastern European hunters use Russian-style weapons with a fixed choke. MEPs were urged to think about the complexity of this issue and not to rush into any decisions.
Professor Perez Trujillo gave feedback from research he has been conducting into new materials. His research team have patented over 10,000 potential new alternative materials and are focusing on 25 of these, in particular one which he described of "higher density" and one of a "medium density". His tests related to the use of these materials as shot rather than bullets. They have demonstrated the ability to achieve ballistic performances very similar to that of lead, with scatter properties if anything better than lead. The cartridges can be the same sizes as those for lead. He also claimed that the new materials should not cause barrel damage to weapons and do not appear to have potentially toxic environmental consequences. They have also done some field tests on live game (partridges and rabbits). This is still early stage development but Professor Trujillo estimates that the price of the new material would be "more than lead but less than other alternatives".
In the comments from the audience after the meeting, a spokesperson for BASC made very positive comments about the research into new material alternatives. A further spokesman for Birdlife re-emphasised that lead is a highly toxic substance and that this should not be forgotten in the debate ahead. I mentioned the very many emails that I have received from across the East of England and how, in our part of the UK, sportsmen and women appear to be supportive of the restriction on lead use over wetlands but have great concern about the impact of any potential extension of this restriction. I also pointed out that it was vital that any alternative material needs to be absolutely safe to use in existing weapons.
In recent months I have received numerous emails from game and clay pigeon shooters across the East of England. Many of you have also emphasised your commitment to conservation, to biodiversity and to the rural environment. I believe that if an alternative to lead were available, with similar properties and at an affordable price then, I suspect, many of you would use it through choice. A ban is not needed.
To conclude, at present there are no formal proposals for a further ban on lead shot. I am still hopeful that the current consultation will not result in a proposal for any outright ban, especially in non-wetlands, but I am working with like-minded colleagues and experts to make sure that we are well armed with good arguments and evidence for any potential debates ahead.
Wishing you a happy New Year,​
Vicky Ford MEP



Neil. :)
 
i personally dont see the problem in using non toxc bullets IF you are shooting for financial gain (contractor , stalking guide , park culling etc) and the animals are going to the game dealer and the meat is going into the food chain .

Now if you are shooting for your own freezer then who gives a monkeys what you shoot it with !

I've been rattling on about non toxic loads for ages and I think it is the way forward , they are extremely accurate and they produce less meat damage , BUT they are a tad pricey if you dont re-load .

But again i think that cost should not come into it , they work for me and thats why i use them .

just my quids worth
 
Lee it's not just about actual stalking but also all other bullets. I think that it has already been mentioned that for instance in California lead .22 bulets are banned in some ares. Think of the problems that it will cause for other people such as clay shooting or target shooting.


Funny how this thread has evolved. The original question by Finnbear related to alternatives to lead solder and had nothing to do with bullets.
 
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Lee it's not just about actual stalking but also all other bullets. I think that it has already been mentioned that for instance in California lead .22 bulets are banned in some ares. Think of the problems that it will cause for other people such as clay shooting or target shooting.

Exactly. It will shut down many avenues of shooting.~Muir
 
Yes there are, and lead free .22 ammunition and lead free shotgun cartridges but we all know some of the problems with these. Also don't forget that solid copper/bronze bullets are either not allowed or restricted on most military ranges so what will shooters be left with, bullets made of cheese?

The threat to all shoting sports is very real.
 
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