found the limit........

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
I have been loading for around 2 years now and never really seen the need to run hyper hot loads and as such never really needed to get close to stated max loads.

luckily my rifles have obeyed the law of the sod's and not had odd chamber preferences...until now

.222rem
Norma Brass
CCI400 primer
N133
43mm case
OAL of "about that much"
52gr AMax


VV data states:
3,452HPBTSierra54,02.126N1201,1617.987628741,2719.69573140
N1301,2819.889929491,3821.39753199
N1331,3721.191630051,5023.19983274

Their Max data shows 23.1gr

I normally shoot 50gr VMax and tried three of these as a cvomparison. (centre group, lowest one was the first AMax which I lost and thought had gone over the target som moved POA to lower cross and continued)

I was being a "good reloader" and worked my way up from 22.0gr in 0.2gr increments
all going well when I hit the wall on the first one of 22.8gr
Bolt was very stiff, case came off the extractor and was well and truly stuck in the chamber.
The case has a clear pressure mark on the head, very obvious brightening marks along its entire length up to the web

Just posted it to show you don't need to be near max to have pressure signs and the jump in signs was all or nothing.

load clock off sticks at 115yds:

002_zps8b0104ee.jpg


case:
004_zpsd3949e6f.jpg

006_zpse4a527f6.jpg
 
you know Ed, I was reading VV's loading data last night, and N160 for a 100g pill in .243 is recommended at max 39g (ish), but when I look on the likes of reloaders nest and such, most people are shooting 41-46g's of N160,,which according to VV, is WAY over max.

makes me question VV's load data...
 
ths84 on here had a similar issue with VV data when he started loading for his .243. Halfway through the load testing, going from min up towards max he had a very heavy bolt and a hard extraction. I agreed when he opted to stop there !
 
the load data you are quoting was used using a sierra bullet your using a hornady bullet,this could be the cause of your over pressure as different bullets can show different pressure signs.
Vit data can be a liitle on the high side though,hence work it up
 
could be
I use there data for three calibres and 9 weights of bullets, very few are the brand quoted.
never hit a max on any other load.
indeed the 50gr VMax load I have for the .222 is based on this:

3,250SPSXHornady53,02.087N1201,2018.589629401,3020.19643163
N1301,3020.191229921,3921.59863235
N1331,3821.390829791,4923.09793212

which looks remarkably similar to the 52gr data!
 
you know Ed, I was reading VV's loading data last night, and N160 for a 100g pill in .243 is recommended at max 39g (ish), but when I look on the likes of reloaders nest and such, most people are shooting 41-46g's of N160,,which according to VV, is WAY over max.

makes me question VV's load data...
41 to 46 with a 100gr bullet WOW thats a lot,where is this posted ??
 
interestingly (or not!)
Lee Max for 100gr .243 is 43.6 and the old VV data is 41gr
with any published load they usually air on the side of caution for legal reasons,you can usually go way above published max load data,persoanlly I find the max load for the given powder iam using first then back it off
may i ask why you shot test loads off sticks ?? as this will not help you decide which is the prefered load for your rifle as your not staedy enough to see any difference
 
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I would ordinarily shoot of sticks in the field

It seems futile to find a load that shaves 3mm off a group on a bagged bench rest and then shoot off sticks.
the .222 is not a range whore its a utility rifle.
I want 1/2"-3/4" groups off sticks at 100+ ideally 1" high for a 225 MPBR.
I have yet to shoot a fox at over 175yds (99% of them are inside 100yds)

I am happy with any one of the three groups middle (50gr VMax), left and top (52gr AMax)
Anything else is ballistic masturbation
 
I would ordinarily shoot of sticks in the field

It seems futile to find a load that shaves 3mm off a group on a bagged bench rest and then shoot off sticks.
the .222 is not a range whore its a utility rifle.
I want 1/2"-3/4" groups off sticks at 100+ ideally 1" high for a 225 MPBR.
I have yet to shoot a fox at over 175yds (99% of them are inside 100yds)

I am happy with any one of the three groups middle (50gr VMax), left and top (52gr AMax)
Anything else is ballistic masturbation
I see,so there is no point trying to work your loads as any of those groups you have posted will do the job for you,as .2 gr of powder difference isnt going to be seen shooting off sticks.
its not fultile mate to find a load that eliminates flyers and consistanly produces the group size you desire on or off sticks,if you see what i mean.
without being funny I cant see how you can tell which is the best load from any of the targets you have posted,I wouldnt take any of them out hunting,no offence but my expections are much higher.
have you actually shot your rifle on paper at 225 yards to see how big the group gets,as it could be the size of a dinner plate
you havnt got to test loads on a bench with bags,lying on the floor with a bipod would probably show you better results,but yes idealy a bench with rear bag and bipod works for me
 
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Bewshr, to be fair, that load data at 3250 FPS with a 52gr bullet from a 222 is pretty robust.

In general I have found VV load data to be very much on the mild side, but there is no doubt you are beyond max with that load.

I would suggest something like Reloder 7 is worth a try in the 222.

As for load testing off sticks, you are only wasting time and money. You will only learn anything useful is you shoot of a decent set of sandbags, preferably off a bench.
 
I would ordinarily shoot of sticks in the field

It seems futile to find a load that shaves 3mm off a group on a bagged bench rest and then shoot off sticks.
the .222 is not a range whore its a utility rifle.
I want 1/2"-3/4" groups off sticks at 100+ ideally 1" high for a 225 MPBR.
I have yet to shoot a fox at over 175yds (99% of them are inside 100yds)

I am happy with any one of the three groups middle (50gr VMax), left and top (52gr AMax)
Anything else is ballistic masturbation

I have scored hundreds of targets at stalkers shoots over the years and it is a proven fact that 8 out of 9 people are incapable of putting three consecuctive shots onto a one-inch bullseye at 100 yards from a firm rest.
These persons have skill levels ranging from expert to mediocre.
[ Everybody would love to see someone shoot a half-inch group off sticks at 100 yards or so and I will gladly give £10 of my old-age pension to see it done.]

It is not possible to achieve a constructive view of a loads capability by using such means off sticks at 100 yards.

HWH.
 
also instead of worrying about powder charge lets face it the 222 has a few ready to go powder loads which are with .5 of each other,you maybe better of choosing a powder with a know powder charge and working your seating depths to gain consistancy,obviously shot from a stable position and not sticks.
once you have taken the inconsistancys out of the rifle you have almost won the battle,only thing to blame then is the operator if you miss (which we all do) seeing you have only been reloading for a short time it maybe time to take a little advanced advice on the subject which will help you a lot.
 
Load developement should be carried out on as firm a rested position as possible, preferably a bench at a range in ideal conditions, if not that then at least prone with some kind of front rest.
Without this steadiness it will be impossible to realise the full accuracy potential of both rifle and load and any load developement in less then these conditions will be a waste of time.

Ian.
 
Was watching Edd shoot today he shot of quad sticks,an braced himself up against a caravan,looked steady enough to me.Edd next time your across ill set the table and sand bags up sure theres some lying around.good shooting by the way.Stuart.
 
Was watching Edd shoot today he shot of quad sticks,an braced himself up against a caravan,looked steady enough to me.Edd next time your across ill set the table and sand bags up sure theres some lying around.good shooting by the way.Stuart.

its maybe time for a change seeing hes know chasing accuracy,I have found bracing ones self makes things worse,yes get the rifle rock solid but be relaxed in your body.Ive found it helps produce groups like this
Picture.jpg
2 x 4 shot groups the right one was shot before adjusting for wind
 
its not fultile mate to find a load that eliminates flyers and consistanly produces the group size you desire on or off sticks,

have you actually shot your rifle on paper at 225 yards to see how big the group gets,

I am happy with 1/2+" groups off sticks.
I have little or no interest in spending hours and quantities of materials trying to shave that down to 1/4" groups or less to prove a point when 99% of the time I only take one shot off sticks, in the dark, at a target that doesnt have a nice cross on its side and probably won't be standing perfectly still.....
I only recently started even weighing the charge for gods sake!
These rounds were knocked together with a Lee Loader this morning and I am using a 6x scope with some electrical tape across the bottom 1/3 to stop the glare of the lamp off the moderator.

That middle 50gr Group measures 14mm (if you won't go hunting with that I am afraid that is your issue.
The left group is 4mm bigger mainly due to the first shot which I know went high as I rocked back a touch. I could, maybe possibly shave that down to 1/4" or less if I wasted 3 more shots or discounted the flyer. I actually find it much more useful to count all the flyers on all the groups and keep my zeroing consistent with my field shooting.

Have I shot it at 225yds No I havent.
I have shot the 50gr VMax loads at 200 and at 250yds. In the dusk/dark actually...and also off sticks leaning against a tree! into a golf course bunker!
3 groups of between 1.75" going out to 2.5"
about -1.5"@200 and -5.5"@250 in drop


Bewsher, to be fair, that load data at 3250 FPS with a 52gr bullet from a 222 is pretty robust.

Yep, works for me.
a circa 3100fps end point was my goal

[ Everybody would love to see someone shoot a half-inch group off sticks at 100 yards or so and I will gladly give £10 of my old-age pension to see it done.]

well as far as I am concerned that middle group at 14mm is 1/2" and at 115yds :D
get your pension book out!


With all due respect to the reloaders that know an awful lot more than me and have way more patience and skill....
I am not a bench rest shooter and reload for cost first and groups size bragging rights second. I only recently bought a press and have yet to shoot anything I have built with it.

My main goal of shooting these groups was to replicate a load I have for 50gr Vmax with 52gr Amax and produce 2 loads with the same POI/trajectory at 100yds with MV of circa 3100fps, within a safe charge level giving groups of around 1/2"-3/4"...which I have done.
(I can get AMax through the post and cheaper than Vmax!!)


The point of posting was to highlight the dangers of assuming a load below book Max is still perfectly OK (not to highlight my agricultural approach to reloading...although as you have all pointed out ....I seem to have done so!)
The laws of physics say I have to push a heavier bullet faster to get a similar trajectory which is why I was close to Max in the first place.

A great deal of stalking is done with factory ammo that rarely produces 1/4-1/2" groups from a solid prone rest. And the actual money shots are rarely taken off such a steady rest!
yet everyone gets excited when bullet holes aren't touching each other.

IMO its no bloody good shooting one hole groups off a concrete bench with bags if you can't hit a 2-4" target on game day from whatever rest presents itself whenever the quarry happens to stand still long enough and in whatever weather!
 
its maybe time for a change seeing hes know chasing accuracy,I have found bracing ones self makes things worse,yes get the rifle rock solid but be relaxed in your body.Ive found it helps produce groups like this 2 x 4 shot groups the right one was shot before adjusting for wind

who said I was chasing accuracy?
I was leaning on the caravan, as I would whatever tree, fence post, wall etc when out shooting
 
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who said I was chasing accuracy?
I was leaning on the caravan, as I would whatever tree, fence post, wall etc when out shooting

Oh sorry I though your were testing home loaded ammo by increasing the charge by .2 of a grain to find your accuracy node.obviously I miss understood you were just larking around
just one question how did you find your FPS ? you must have had a large tripod for the chrono to get it to the hight of the sticks
 
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