Just watch a DVD on bow hunting
- Thread starter 7mmWSM
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it wasnt u tube,it was a free DVD I got at the CLA gamefair sponsered by realtreeroe steak said:
shocking really I have shot some big stuff in my time all over the world but this box hunting really opened my eyes,i wanted to have a go at hunting with a bow sometime in my life but I dont think I will bother now
Bow hunting or rifle hunting, in skilled hands either is a tool that allows swift and clean kills.
Gut shot, any animal is not going to enjoy the rest of its life.
As usual, it's the nut behind the but!
Rgds Ian
Gut shot, any animal is not going to enjoy the rest of its life.
As usual, it's the nut behind the but!
Rgds Ian
Boghossian
Well-Known Member
IanF said:
+1 A single fluffed shot doesn't make it brutal.
I wonder how many pheasants catch a single pellet in the guts at the end of a driven day?
Sorry Ian, can't agree about bows being as capable as rifles at giving a clean kill. No top bow shooter is going to be as accurate as an average rifle shooter and the delivery of energy is completly different.Good compund bows release only at a speed of about 300 fps with a snap that allow the quarry to flinch even at very close range so your arrow isn't going to land where you aim
The arrow with hunting head only cuts in while the bullet causes significant trauma because of the shock wave passing through the animals tissues. There's a very good reason why we don't play indians in th uk.
paul k
Well-Known Member
I too have watched some bow hunting DVDs and I'm still undecided about it.
A lot is down to the skill of the hunter and we know that there are poor rifle shots around that wound and leave animals to die a lingering death and this is particularly true of the US where there seems to be some kudos for long range shots.
Modern broadheads are very efficient and have three razor sharp cutting edges designed to cause severe blood loss.
My view of bow hunting based on what I have seen, and of course this is limited, is that:
a) bow hunters show considerable skills (and courage) in getting far closer to their quarry than a rifle hunter needs to.
b) animals shot with a bow show far less alarm and shock than those shot with a rifle. Of course there is no noise but also in a number of cases the animal reacts as if it has been stung by an insect, especially the bigger animals like bears and moose.
c) Animals shot with a bow often die of haemorrhage not organ destruction or shock. This does sometimes take longer but in many cases the animal does not exhibit distress and just lies down and expires. I saw one grizzly bear hunt where the hunter waited for about 30 minutes just 20 yards from the bear until it offered a shot. The bear then reacted as if it had been stung but settled down again and just died a minute or two later. (He had a guide with a rifle as back up).
d) Animals not hit in a vital area have a fair chance of survival, probably better than if similarly hit with a bullet as they have suffered no shock injuries. Neck or head shots are not really an option for bow hunters and these risky shots are thus avoided.
e) Animals like deer did run a fair way after the shot but not really any further than we might expect with an "engine room" shot on a deer with a rifle.
f) Hunting with a bow does not in any way disturb the hunting area in terms of alarming other animals and is in effect non-intrusive.
g) Bow hunting probably requires more skill in shot placement than rifle hunting and the inevitable lack of skill by a larger proportion of bow hunters is going to result in more wounded animals.
My conclusion is that I'm not going to condemn it out of hand but it's not for me. I do think that bow hunters should be licensed and have to demonstrate a minimum standard of marksmanship.
A lot is down to the skill of the hunter and we know that there are poor rifle shots around that wound and leave animals to die a lingering death and this is particularly true of the US where there seems to be some kudos for long range shots.
Modern broadheads are very efficient and have three razor sharp cutting edges designed to cause severe blood loss.
My view of bow hunting based on what I have seen, and of course this is limited, is that:
a) bow hunters show considerable skills (and courage) in getting far closer to their quarry than a rifle hunter needs to.
b) animals shot with a bow show far less alarm and shock than those shot with a rifle. Of course there is no noise but also in a number of cases the animal reacts as if it has been stung by an insect, especially the bigger animals like bears and moose.
c) Animals shot with a bow often die of haemorrhage not organ destruction or shock. This does sometimes take longer but in many cases the animal does not exhibit distress and just lies down and expires. I saw one grizzly bear hunt where the hunter waited for about 30 minutes just 20 yards from the bear until it offered a shot. The bear then reacted as if it had been stung but settled down again and just died a minute or two later. (He had a guide with a rifle as back up).
d) Animals not hit in a vital area have a fair chance of survival, probably better than if similarly hit with a bullet as they have suffered no shock injuries. Neck or head shots are not really an option for bow hunters and these risky shots are thus avoided.
e) Animals like deer did run a fair way after the shot but not really any further than we might expect with an "engine room" shot on a deer with a rifle.
f) Hunting with a bow does not in any way disturb the hunting area in terms of alarming other animals and is in effect non-intrusive.
g) Bow hunting probably requires more skill in shot placement than rifle hunting and the inevitable lack of skill by a larger proportion of bow hunters is going to result in more wounded animals.
My conclusion is that I'm not going to condemn it out of hand but it's not for me. I do think that bow hunters should be licensed and have to demonstrate a minimum standard of marksmanship.
I have a video of Ted Nugent shooting a wildboar/feral pig with a bow, and the arrow goes straight through,the pig just flinches and then carries on feeding, and then after a few minutes falls over obviously through internal bleeding.
There is also another one that shows a black bear being hit,it runs 100yds before falling over,never recovered the arrow.
Modern bows are equally as deadly as any firearm, the skill involved is in my opinion far greater than that of most stalkers.
As has been said before a gut shot animal is going to die a slow death irrelevant of what its shot with..
A 5hr follow up is to be commended, I wonder how many of us would have given up after 5hrs..
I for one would like to have the opportunity to hunt with a bow, to see if I have the neccesary skills that you need to get within touching distance..
This attitude towards something that probably non of us have experienced really does leave a lot to be desired, a bit like flyfisheman versus bait fisherman, or the the attitude towards shooting deer with a shotgun.
Are you a fly fisherman or an angler, or are you hunter or someone who justs shoots with a rifle..
Me, I want to try everthing, I not prepared to accept a blinkered approach to hunting.
regards
griff
p.s the way legislation is going a bow and arrow might be the only alternative!
There is also another one that shows a black bear being hit,it runs 100yds before falling over,never recovered the arrow.
Modern bows are equally as deadly as any firearm, the skill involved is in my opinion far greater than that of most stalkers.
As has been said before a gut shot animal is going to die a slow death irrelevant of what its shot with..
A 5hr follow up is to be commended, I wonder how many of us would have given up after 5hrs..
I for one would like to have the opportunity to hunt with a bow, to see if I have the neccesary skills that you need to get within touching distance..
This attitude towards something that probably non of us have experienced really does leave a lot to be desired, a bit like flyfisheman versus bait fisherman, or the the attitude towards shooting deer with a shotgun.
Are you a fly fisherman or an angler, or are you hunter or someone who justs shoots with a rifle..
Me, I want to try everthing, I not prepared to accept a blinkered approach to hunting.
regards
griff
p.s the way legislation is going a bow and arrow might be the only alternative!
howa243
Well-Known Member
I have no problem with the concept of stalking so close to an animal that you could hit it with an arrow. I do with the concept of actually releasing the arrow. The members of this site profess to 'manage' deer and to do so in a humane way using the right equipment to get the job done properly.
To test oneself is one thing. To then use a weapon knowing that it might not do the job properly, is entirely wrong in my opinion.
To test oneself is one thing. To then use a weapon knowing that it might not do the job properly, is entirely wrong in my opinion.
Only a fool would use a weapon that is incorrect for the job or knows that it is not upto the task in hand.
At what point does an arrow that goes through a boar or a black bear become inadequate?
Especially considering that even with modern firearms we do not get a through and through.
Its easy to say that a firearms cause more damage,but an animal shot with a bow sometimes doesn't even know its been hit and dies from internal bleeding.
A modern hunting arrow probably has a 4" wound channel, which cuts through bone and sinue and arteries like a knife through butter.
The Americans, the Aussies,the Kiwis shoot more game with a bow and arrow than what we shoot in the UK with a firearms.
So don't come on here accusing me of tossing aside welfare issues just because I would like to try something else other a firearm.
Modern bows kill just as effectively as firearms in the right hands,the meat is probably far better because there is no this shock to the system, releasing adrenaline into the musle structure.
Let me tell you this, i've seen better groups from a bow hunter than some rifle shots, perhaps we should be looking more closely at our own shortcomings before we start critising others..
regards
griff
At what point does an arrow that goes through a boar or a black bear become inadequate?
Especially considering that even with modern firearms we do not get a through and through.
Its easy to say that a firearms cause more damage,but an animal shot with a bow sometimes doesn't even know its been hit and dies from internal bleeding.
A modern hunting arrow probably has a 4" wound channel, which cuts through bone and sinue and arteries like a knife through butter.
The Americans, the Aussies,the Kiwis shoot more game with a bow and arrow than what we shoot in the UK with a firearms.
So don't come on here accusing me of tossing aside welfare issues just because I would like to try something else other a firearm.
Modern bows kill just as effectively as firearms in the right hands,the meat is probably far better because there is no this shock to the system, releasing adrenaline into the musle structure.
Let me tell you this, i've seen better groups from a bow hunter than some rifle shots, perhaps we should be looking more closely at our own shortcomings before we start critising others..
regards
griff
I have to say that i'd love the chance to stalk with a bow if i was capable. Modern arrows are leathal so when a shot hits the intended mark the beast is dead. I just wouldn't use a bow because I know my abilities arn't good enough with such a weapon.
The skill of SOME experienced hunters is clearly very high but there is that snap when the arrow is released so whatever quarry it flinches before the arrow lands. Some animals jumped before the arrows hit!
Bow hunting is challenging, exciting and must be the most thrilling hunting method on larger species but it's about the experience and not the practical or efficient management of your intended quarry. Welfare seems to be a minor concern which i'm never happy with.
The skill of SOME experienced hunters is clearly very high but there is that snap when the arrow is released so whatever quarry it flinches before the arrow lands. Some animals jumped before the arrows hit!
Bow hunting is challenging, exciting and must be the most thrilling hunting method on larger species but it's about the experience and not the practical or efficient management of your intended quarry. Welfare seems to be a minor concern which i'm never happy with.
I have to say that i'd love the chance to stalk with a bow if i was capable. Modern arrows are leathal so when a shot hits the intended mark the beast is dead. I just wouldn't use a bow because I know my abilities arn't good enough with such a weapon.
The skill of SOME experienced hunters is clearly very high but there is that snap when the arrow is released so whatever quarry it flinches before the arrow lands. Some animals jumped before the arrows hit!
Bow hunting is challenging, exciting and must be the most thrilling hunting method on larger species but it's about the experience and not the practical or efficient management of your intended quarry. Welfare seems to be a minor concern which i'm never happy with.
The skill of SOME experienced hunters is clearly very high but there is that snap when the arrow is released so whatever quarry it flinches before the arrow lands. Some animals jumped before the arrows hit!
Bow hunting is challenging, exciting and must be the most thrilling hunting method on larger species but it's about the experience and not the practical or efficient management of your intended quarry. Welfare seems to be a minor concern which i'm never happy with.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Bow hunting or rifle hunting, in skilled hands either is a tool that allows swift and clean kills.
Gut shot, any animal is not going to enjoy the rest of its life.
Correct 110%! And, thanks to one Mrs Thatcher, it is also illegal in the UK thanks to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.
Gut shot, any animal is not going to enjoy the rest of its life.
Correct 110%! And, thanks to one Mrs Thatcher, it is also illegal in the UK thanks to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.
Boghossian
Well-Known Member
Did anyone bowhunt in the UK regularly before the 1981 Act?
Fallow during the rut would have been great.
Fallow during the rut would have been great.
bow hunting wether with a compund bow or crossbow was banned i thought because of the shear number of animal woundings they claimed were caused by joe barnett owner?
If there was a well regulated and licensed system maybe it would work but to pass the marksmanship test would be probably need you to be olympic standard. That's if DCS ran it.
If there was a well regulated and licensed system maybe it would work but to pass the marksmanship test would be probably need you to be olympic standard. That's if DCS ran it.
howa243
Well-Known Member
Last year I was fortunate enough to go on the Accurate Reloading cull at Baldock. Before being allowed out we had had to undertake a shooting test with IanF. It was a simple enough test, one shot on a target followed by three more on another. My first shot was very satisfactory and gave me encouragement for the grouping test. This however did not go so well. Two of my three were within the required target with one outside. Ian quite rightly asked me to come back later for a re-shoot. Time prevented my return but my shooting was not so bad as to preclude me from taking part in the cull over the next couple of days. As it happens I shot at nothing and with the benefit of hindsight I am pleased I didn’t.
There are some of us who believe that three shots in four inches at 100 yards is too liberal a requirement to prove competency although it seems reasonable to me.
I can understand why someone would want to hunt with a bow or at least I can understand why someone would want to stalk in close. However I really cannot understand why, when we talk so much about ensuring that we make a clean kill and have the welfare of the animal at heart that anyone would then use a weapon which is inferior.
Having done a little research on the topic and accepting that you can slant these things whichever way you want I am posting some items which may be of interest.
This first part is taken off of the Accurate Reloading bowhunting section.
What sort of accuracy do you guys get with traditional bows? By traditional I mean longbows/recurves.
Anyways, i'm shooting like 2 FOOT groups at 30 yards. maybe 2 1/2. With my compound I shoot 2, 3" groups. I'm getting better with the longbow, but i'm curious as to what would be considered "normal", "good", and "excellent"
I usually shoot groups from 2-4" at 25 yards and I've never had trouble taking game from 0-30 yards, if they are further than that, they are too far for me. Most of the deer I have taken were from 10-15 yards.
Anyone that can shoot 2" groups and judge ranges reliably can do quite well in the hunter class as well.
Don't let anyone kid you , I've shot with quite a few successful bow hunters and if you can consistently hold a group from 2-4" at 25-30 yards you are doing quite well my friend, you'll never have trouble taking game with that kind of accuracy.
At least 75% of my arrows hit the 4" circles on a Morrels target at 40 feet. The other 25% will be pretty close. I try to practice 3-4 times a week just to keep my shoulders in shape.
Adrian Benke, a Texan and still active firearms hunter laid down his bow in 1969 after he had shot 31 deer with arrows. Of these 31 animals Benke states in his book, The Bowhunting Alternative (published 1989): I’d killed just seven and later found the carcasses of four others. He continues to say: I then declared bowhunting a farce and quit the sport. Since the early 1970’s, Benke has done extensive research and in-depth
studies on bowhunting.
In a major study done in 1989 by Glen Boydston and Horace Gore, Wildlife biologists at the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, they compared data on archery and gun wounding losses gathered at four wildlife management areas in Texas from 1972 through 1985. During this period, archers bagged 128 deer and wounded and failed to retrieve 130 others, for a crippling loss exceeding 50%—revealing that for every deer
legally killed and recovered by a bowhunter, at least one or more deer were wounded and left to die in a slow and painful manner. Gun hunters killed 2,266 deer and wounded 150 others for a crippling loss of 7%. Thus, only 1 out of every 14 deer shot with guns was not retrieved.
The Texas study provided evidence that, on average, 21 shots were made for every deer killed, or about 10 shorts per deer hit.
BOW SPEED AND RANGE
The trajectory of the arrow limits the range of the bow and its accuracy to a
distance of approximately 50-60 yards.
• A 540-grain arrow shot at 200 feet per second drops 9.5 feet at 50 yards.
• A 170-grain 30-30 caliber rifle bullet drops 1.5 inches in 50 yards.
I did find information which showed bowhunting in a slightly better light but not close to approaching the effectiveness of a high powered rifle.
My question.
Is it not possible to test ones stalking skills without then risking a wounded animal by using equipment which is less effective than other equipment in your possession?
There are some of us who believe that three shots in four inches at 100 yards is too liberal a requirement to prove competency although it seems reasonable to me.
I can understand why someone would want to hunt with a bow or at least I can understand why someone would want to stalk in close. However I really cannot understand why, when we talk so much about ensuring that we make a clean kill and have the welfare of the animal at heart that anyone would then use a weapon which is inferior.
Having done a little research on the topic and accepting that you can slant these things whichever way you want I am posting some items which may be of interest.
This first part is taken off of the Accurate Reloading bowhunting section.
What sort of accuracy do you guys get with traditional bows? By traditional I mean longbows/recurves.
Anyways, i'm shooting like 2 FOOT groups at 30 yards. maybe 2 1/2. With my compound I shoot 2, 3" groups. I'm getting better with the longbow, but i'm curious as to what would be considered "normal", "good", and "excellent"
I usually shoot groups from 2-4" at 25 yards and I've never had trouble taking game from 0-30 yards, if they are further than that, they are too far for me. Most of the deer I have taken were from 10-15 yards.
Anyone that can shoot 2" groups and judge ranges reliably can do quite well in the hunter class as well.
Don't let anyone kid you , I've shot with quite a few successful bow hunters and if you can consistently hold a group from 2-4" at 25-30 yards you are doing quite well my friend, you'll never have trouble taking game with that kind of accuracy.
At least 75% of my arrows hit the 4" circles on a Morrels target at 40 feet. The other 25% will be pretty close. I try to practice 3-4 times a week just to keep my shoulders in shape.
Adrian Benke, a Texan and still active firearms hunter laid down his bow in 1969 after he had shot 31 deer with arrows. Of these 31 animals Benke states in his book, The Bowhunting Alternative (published 1989): I’d killed just seven and later found the carcasses of four others. He continues to say: I then declared bowhunting a farce and quit the sport. Since the early 1970’s, Benke has done extensive research and in-depth
studies on bowhunting.
In a major study done in 1989 by Glen Boydston and Horace Gore, Wildlife biologists at the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, they compared data on archery and gun wounding losses gathered at four wildlife management areas in Texas from 1972 through 1985. During this period, archers bagged 128 deer and wounded and failed to retrieve 130 others, for a crippling loss exceeding 50%—revealing that for every deer
legally killed and recovered by a bowhunter, at least one or more deer were wounded and left to die in a slow and painful manner. Gun hunters killed 2,266 deer and wounded 150 others for a crippling loss of 7%. Thus, only 1 out of every 14 deer shot with guns was not retrieved.
The Texas study provided evidence that, on average, 21 shots were made for every deer killed, or about 10 shorts per deer hit.
BOW SPEED AND RANGE
The trajectory of the arrow limits the range of the bow and its accuracy to a
distance of approximately 50-60 yards.
• A 540-grain arrow shot at 200 feet per second drops 9.5 feet at 50 yards.
• A 170-grain 30-30 caliber rifle bullet drops 1.5 inches in 50 yards.
I did find information which showed bowhunting in a slightly better light but not close to approaching the effectiveness of a high powered rifle.
My question.
Is it not possible to test ones stalking skills without then risking a wounded animal by using equipment which is less effective than other equipment in your possession?
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