Cast lead bullets
- Thread starter Tamus
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Tamus
Well-Known Member
Thanks DR.
Incidentally, is there a law which actually says that bullets used on deer "must expand in a controllable manner"?
If yes... what law is that please?
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/police/firearms/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary
4.3 The words designed or adapted are the
important ones here. Any bullet will deform
on impact with a sufficiently hard surface,
but only bullets, and ammunition containing
bullets, which were designed or have been
adapted to do so in a controlled manner are
actually affected by the legislation.
4.3 The words designed or adapted are the
important ones here. Any bullet will deform
on impact with a sufficiently hard surface,
but only bullets, and ammunition containing
bullets, which were designed or have been
adapted to do so in a controlled manner are
actually affected by the legislation.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
No, unless the mould casts them with a hollow point, or you drill a hollow point in them after casting (such as with a Forster Hollow Pointer) cast lead bullets EVEN WITH A FLAT POINT are not classed as "expanding missiles" for the purposes of the Firearms Act.
So as was posted above, by another, unless cast with that hollow point or afterwards drilles with a hollow point, they are not, per se, even with a flat point that is not drilled, "designed or adapted"....
So as was posted above, by another, unless cast with that hollow point or afterwards drilles with a hollow point, they are not, per se, even with a flat point that is not drilled, "designed or adapted"....
kennyc
Well-Known Member
so how does that leave normal soft points ? they seem to expand happily without a hollow point?
6pt-sika
Well-Known Member
Here in the states I kill deer each year with home cast lead bullets . Lately they all started life as 44 caliber so not as much expansion is needed .
However I cast with an alloy of plain old wheelweights and typically air cool . For some of the larger bullets I water quench them for a harder skin to grip the rifling in the barrel . But I can tell you they do an admirable job on whitetail deer and black bear .
Now legalities in your country versus the US are another matter and one I'm not up on .
Incidently I have found with the bullets I cast , a flat point does a far better job dispatching the animals then a HP . I think I've killed 7 animals with hollow pointed home cast lead bullets . And about 30 with regular flat points .
However I cast with an alloy of plain old wheelweights and typically air cool . For some of the larger bullets I water quench them for a harder skin to grip the rifling in the barrel . But I can tell you they do an admirable job on whitetail deer and black bear .
Now legalities in your country versus the US are another matter and one I'm not up on .
Incidently I have found with the bullets I cast , a flat point does a far better job dispatching the animals then a HP . I think I've killed 7 animals with hollow pointed home cast lead bullets . And about 30 with regular flat points .
Agreed. Hollow point bullets do nothing for controlled expansion in cast bullets. An engineer named T.B.Cost and I rigged "quench annealing" unit that would quench the driving bands of our cast bullets and then anneal the noses. We worked on it for over two years until I decided that a 180 grain 30 caliber case bullet, completely hardened and driven at 2400 + fps would flatten a deer despite the lack of a "soft" nose. Tom worked on the project til he died, and I machined some annealing plates for him, but I never used quench/annealed bullets again. Even the hardest, hardened, cast bullets are only 1/3 as hard as copper jacketed bullets so they are by their nature, soft.~Muir
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Velocity!
Most all lead bullets, including those that are paper patched, are shot at around 1,900 fps or in case of plain lead non paper patched bullets a lot less. Think 1,000 fps to 1,200 fps for lead alloy bullets (90% lead plus 5% tin and 5% antimony) or even as low as 800 fps tp 900 fps for PURE lead.
But put a metal half jacket around that bullet and make the lead it encloses PURE lead and if you shoot it at 2,300 fps or more and it will show some expansion with even a flat tip. Because with the metal jacket it is "designed" to be driven at high velocity so that the pure lead will expand.
And modern rifle cartridges are driven at velocities that start at 2,400 fps to as much as 3,000 fps. So with just a soft point showing out of their metal jacket they will expand.
So the answer is velocity.
That only applies in Scotland.
In England/Wales the Deer Act only requires that you use "a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet".
Neither is there any requirement regarding muzzle velocity, as long as 1700 fpe muzzle energy is achieved. (Or 1000 fpe for Muntjack and CWD).
Deer Act 1991
As far as I can see all unjacketed lead bullets are, by definition, "soft nosed", so may be used (in England/Wales).
As for Scotland, it seems to me that the expansion requirement, combined with minimum muzzle velocity of 2450 fps, would pretty much disallow the use of unjacketed lead bullets.
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Kind of. The 30-30, 32-40,30-40 and 32 Winchester Special all operate at the 1600-2200 fps levels and have taken many deer in this country but the jackets and cores were specifically designed for these lower velocity applications.
For what it's worth, I have shot a goodly number of deer and varmints with high velocity cast bullets and I'm reasonably certain the game never felt the lack of a jacket.~Muir
Tamus
Well-Known Member
At last, someone who acknowledges the "actual" words written in our laws....
...Obviously a solid lead "rifled" slug (whatever that is) must qualify, since that's one of your 12b options already.
AFAIK in the limited situations where a shotgun is legal, I don't think there is any stipulation on muzzle energy, just a minimum shot size, with which a slug obviously complies.
I'm not familiar with the velocities or energies achieved by slugs in shotguns, but a e.g. a 1oz slug would have to achieve 1342 fps to make 1750 fpe. Knowing what standard 1oz shot loads achieve, that seems reasonable, but unlikely to be exceeded by much. Despite their fearsome reputation, I'd be surprised if a typical slug carries any more energy than a typical 100 grain .243.
The practicalities of using cast lead in England/Wales are that sensible velocities, say 1500 fps, mean e.g. 340 grain bullet weight minimum. Which corresponds very nicely with sensible 45-70 loads
. And I know someone who uses just that, in a Marlin SBL, for woodland stalking.Once you look at e.g. .30 calibre such as my 30-30, a typical 170 grain lead bullet needs to be moving at over 2122 fps, which is quite challenging to achieve with a simple gas-checked lead bullet. Good control over lead hardness/alloy composition, casting quality and bullet lubrication is necessary. And accuracy is unlikely be comparable with that expected from jacketed bullets, except at modest ranges.
So although the idea is appealing, I don't see much application for cast bullets in UK stalking except at close range in large calibres.
BuckarooUK
Well-Known Member
Okay, so if planning to stalk in Scotland, especially in woodland, what would be the ideal choice of caliber ( and maybe rifle ) in order to stalk legally? What with the rising cost of bullets and the expected shortage of components due to the US panic buying, cast bullets may be the inexpensive way to go. Provided the antis don't have their way and ban lead bullets.
AFAIK in the limited situations where a shotgun is legal, I don't think there is any stipulation on muzzle energy, just a minimum shot size, with which a slug obviously complies.
I'm not familiar with the velocities or energies achieved by slugs in shotguns, but a e.g. a 1oz slug would have to achieve 1342 fps to make 1750 fpe. Knowing what standard 1oz shot loads achieve, that seems reasonable, but unlikely to be exceeded by much. Despite their fearsome reputation, I'd be surprised if a typical slug carries any more energy than a typical 100 grain .243.
The practicalities of using cast lead in England/Wales are that sensible velocities, say 1500 fps, mean e.g. 340 grain bullet weight minimum. Which corresponds very nicely with sensible 45-70 loads
Once you look at e.g. .30 calibre such as my 30-30, a typical 170 grain lead bullet needs to be moving at over 2122 fps, which is quite challenging to achieve with a simple gas-checked lead bullet. Good control over lead hardness/alloy composition, casting quality and bullet lubrication is necessary. And accuracy is unlikely be comparable with that expected from jacketed bullets, except at modest ranges.
So although the idea is appealing, I don't see much application for cast bullets in UK stalking except at close range in large calibres.
I'm not too certain about that. I have cast and shot thousands of 30 caliber (or near thirty: 303, 8mm) at jacketed speeds and moderate jacketed pressures. I have killed many deer with them. My current 8x57JS load is a 206 grain gas-checked bullet at 2450 fps fired from my Husqvarna sporter. Accurate and lethal. My favorite 308 load is an RCBS 30-180-SP bullet @ 2400 fps. Very accurate, kills deer dead.
The caveat to all this is that cast bullet shooting is a different kind of discipline. If you want high velocity small bore cast bullet success it takes patience, preparation, and an attention to detail. Loading 45-70 @ 1500 fps is child's play. Serious high velocity cast bullet shooting is far different.~Muir
If you really want to try, then you need to shoot your (cast) bullets at at least 2450 fps and make 1750 fpe. Or 1000 fpe for Roe.
This means a bullet of at least 131 grains. Or 75 grains for Roe.
Perhaps you might manage to get your bullets up to 2450 fps with usable accuracy and consistency. I don't mean shooting a 3 shot group with discounted fliers, but real consistent first-cold-barrel, day-to-day, year-to-year consistency. Such as we expect from jacketed bullets.
But you must also "design" your bullets to "expand in a predictable manner". Whatever that means.
If you know how to combine these conflicting requirements, good luck.
Even then, in Scotland (unlike England/Wales) the Deer Act gives the Secretary of State:
"power to make such order as he thinks fit regarding the classes of firearms, ammunition, sights and other equipment which may lawfully be used in connection with killing or taking deer, and the circumstances in which any class of firearms, ammunition, sights or other equipment may be so used."
Deer (Scotland) Act 1996
So if he/she doesn't like the idea of you using unjacketed lead bullets, they can ban it as they see fit, after due consultation. I don't think anybody likely to be consulted would regard homemade lead bullets as being a desirable alternative.
Fortunately here in England/Wales we don't have such restrictive legislation.
Personally I don't see the price of deer bullets per-se as being of any significance in my hobby. For target shooting yes absolutely.
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