Fac wording confusion

Ollie

Member
Finally got my variation back from Warwickshire after nearly 3 months, and there's 2 parts of the conditions that are confusing me, it states the .243 rifle + moderator to be used for shooting deer and all other lawful quarry while under the supervision of a suitably qualified deer stalker, now to me that sounds like I can only use the rifle while with a suitable deer stalker even while lamping.. I also would like too know what a suitably qualified deer stalker is? Just another shooter with deer on there certificate or someone who has dsc1 dsc2 and all other qualifications, too me the wording is not really explaining alot...
 
Warwickshire are only part time now and never there, ring my feo and its answer phone I only work part time hours now ring this number that no one answers... Not so simple huh?
 
They will have an email address, keep it in writing and be patient if you can't get them on the phone, only they can give you the definitive answer you're after.......
 
I would say you can only use the rifle when with someone with an open ticket !
But i would ring or write to them to get confirmation as what their idea of a suitable qualified person is !
 
When I finally get hold of someone tomorrow ill ask what it means because if it means I can only go lamping or zeroing with a deer stalker it's no use what so ever
 
So to shoot fox at night, you need to be accompanied by a qualified deer stalker? :rolleyes:

I call that "Constructive Refusal." Research that phrase and see if you agree with me.

Then write a letter, sent recorded delivery and include that phrase. It seemed to work for me when getting a mentoring condition removed.

If you call and speak to them, I don't think it helps them keep an audit trail of their decisions. If they have your letter, they can file it away as proof. That's my theory anyway.
 
Yes I see what you mean with the constructive refusal, my feo didn't have a problem with me having a .243 as I have another centrefire anyway, he just wanted supervision while stalking and after a few stalks he will lift that condition, I don't know if its just worded wrong, or as you said a constructive refusal :/
 
Ollie, go to the licensing dept, my mate in Rugby went there last october when he had a problem and they rectified it there and then.
Your 243 condition is overly restrictive ans virtually unusable ask them to clarify the position on lamping for fox and have it seperated form the deer stalking condition.

Ian.
 
On the strength of what you have said it appears to be purely a mentoring condition on a closed FAC, QUITE ROUTINE FOR DEER STALKING,YOU HAVING A DSC1 AND GETTING A LETTER FROM YOUR MENTOR SHOULD FREE OFF YOUR FAC IN DUE COURSE. Your use of centrefire for foxes at night is irrelevant in this matter this is a vermin condition , they do treat deer conditions with more reverence as they are subject to statutory seasons,etc.and stricter limitation on when you can shoot ie 1hour before dawn/after dusk and so on.....go with it.;)
 
Unfortunately if the wording is exactly as you say, you are restricted to shooting with a mentor whatever your quarry. As other have said, you will need to have the condition amended so it is less restrictive.
 
Unfortunately if the wording is exactly as you say, you are restricted to shooting with a mentor whatever your quarry. As other have said, you will need to have the condition amended so it is less restrictive.
If it is not a genuine idiotic mistake on their part, then constructive refusal would be the way forward for me.
 
I would say you can only use the rifle when with someone with an open ticket !
But i would ring or write to them to get confirmation as what their idea of a suitable qualified person is !
Open ticket makes no difference, mines open, but has conditions of


6. The .308, .260 & .243 Rifles, Sound Moderators and ammunition may also be used for DEER CONTROL and any other lawful quarry and for zeroing on ranges, or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.


7. Until such time as the holder of this certificate passes a recognised Deer Management Course, he/she shall only use the .308 & .243 Rifles on deer, when accompanied by an experienced stalker.

but, even as an open ticket, I still couldn't be the 'experienced stalker' for Ollie. Though, if he has never shot a deer, but I have, that makes me 'more' experienced than him, so, would that count ? Nah, I didn't think so either ;)

Regards
​Pete
 
I would have said its not an open ticket then Tramp if its got conditions on it but who knows each force seem to put any old crap on peoples certificate !
All i know is mines been open with zero conditions since i was 18
 
I would have said its not an open ticket then Tramp if its got conditions on it but who knows each force seem to put any old crap on peoples certificate !
All i know is mines been open with zero conditions since i was 18

'Open' ticket means you don't have to get land cleared before using, Ie the condition will say
say

6. The .308, .260 & .243 Rifles, Sound Moderators and ammunition may also be used for DEER CONTROL and any other lawful quarry and for zeroing on ranges, or over land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of police for the area where the land is situated which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

And you WILL have some. The standard conditions 1-5 as std on the form 101.
And what about having the condition to 'acquire expanding ammo?' Every ticket I've ever seen where the holder has the authority to acquire sec5 ammo/bullets says so as the last condition


Regards
​Pete
 
'Open' ticket means you don't have to get land cleared before using, Ie the condition will say
say

6. The .308, .260 & .243 Rifles, Sound Moderators and ammunition may also be used for DEER CONTROL and any other lawful quarry and for zeroing on ranges, or over land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of police for the area where the land is situated which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

And you WILL have some. The standard conditions 1-5 as std on the form 101.
And what about having the condition to 'acquire expanding ammo?' Every ticket I've ever seen where the holder has the authority to acquire sec5 ammo/bullets says so as the last condition


Regards
​Pete

In your example does section 6 still mean its not open as land has to be cleared by Cheif Officer Of Police? MAy be wrong but that is how I would read it.
 
Open ticket makes no difference, mines open, but has conditions of


6. The .308, .260 & .243 Rifles, Sound Moderators and ammunition may also be used for DEER CONTROL and any other lawful quarry and for zeroing on ranges, or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.


7. Until such time as the holder of this certificate passes a recognised Deer Management Course, he/she shall only use the .308 & .243 Rifles on deer, when accompanied by an experienced stalker.

but, even as an open ticket, I still couldn't be the 'experienced stalker' for Ollie. Though, if he has never shot a deer, but I have, that makes me 'more' experienced than him, so, would that count ? Nah, I didn't think so either ;)

Regards
​Pete

Number seven makes this cert closed for me.
 
In your example does section 6 still mean its not open as land has to be cleared by Cheif Officer Of Police? MAy be wrong but that is how I would read it.
Sorry, my mistake, the example there is of a 'closed' ticket. Or the 'land restricted' ticket as it should be more correctly called.

​Pete
 
Number seven makes this cert closed for me.
Why is that then ? Why does everyone else refer to a closed ticket as one where you have to get land cleared, open, where you don't. And what's wrong with number 7? I can still use the 260 on my own ;)

​pete
 
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