Best way to test Competence

Competence Lev


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6pointer

Well-Known Member
I have been stalking many years and i never had to demonstrate compitence to any one.Times have changed and we now need to show we are fit for pourpose to shoot on public lands. DSC 2 Seems to me to be more and more sought after is it really nessasary to do three successful stalks to pass an award. Or are we being to hard on new stalkers your opinions please.
 
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I have been stalking many years and i never had to demonstrate compitence to any one.Times have changed and we now need to show we are fit for pourpose to shoot on public lands. DSC 2 Seems to me to be more and more sought after is it really nessasary to do three successful stalks to pass an award. Or are we being to hard on new stalkers your opinions please.

I've always wondered about this too... why three?

I passed my exams at school on one test each. Same for all my further education. In fact, in my day, a re-sit was a bad thing and would go against you even if you scraped through on one. There was only one pass of my driving test and luckily I only had to sit that test once... even so, it would only have been the ONE that I passed that counted ..... for the rest of my life.

So, when it comes to stalking, what is all this... do it three times... thing about... and what is the idea that once you do have your DSC2 you'll still need to have someone vouch for you after it's five years old?

I think we know the answer... and competence isn't it.
 
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Having endured nine witnessed stalks to get three culls myself I think it is imperative that it should stay as it is. :) It would be just my luck for it to change to less now. :D

All joking aside I think it is fair that it takes three witnessed stalks to complete your level2 but perhaps a minimum of one cull and one witnessed gralloch would be enough to make it more accessible to people.
 
competance of what?

shooting?
stalking quietly within a sensible range of target species?
target choice?
gralloch and carcase preparation?

plenty of people with a lot more stalks than you ask under their belt who won't perform one or other of the above perfectly on the day
 
I guess first things first; DSC2 isn't designed as a Pass/Fail type exam, rather an ability for "candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically". So comparing it to exams at school is not really apples to apples.

If that's the aim of the qualification then it's hard to see how you could demonstrate either of these on the basis of just one successful stalk. Personally I feel three provides the right balance between meeting the objectives of the DSC2 and not being too onerous, costly or time consuming.....and no prizes for the first to come back and argue the "costly" statement ;)

Does it make you a stalking ninja - no.

Does it make you better than someone with a lifetime of experience - not necessarily.

Does it mean you've demonstrated knowledge and competence - yes.

Does it mean that you can rest on your laurels - no.

Now given that the DSC2 is out there and established (4,004 completed as of today) why go and invent some new measure?

willie_gunn
 
I did my level 2 on three diferent species with three diferent people...

I really enjoyed it and despite proving competent learnt loads more in their company and not just specific things related to the deer species taken with them..

Three seems good and works well, if it were free some some people would still find something to moan about..

Terry
 
I guess first things first; DSC2 isn't designed as a Pass/Fail type exam, rather an ability for "candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically". So comparing it to exams at school is not really apples to apples.

If that's the aim of the qualification then it's hard to see how you could demonstrate either of these on the basis of just one successful stalk. Personally I feel three provides the right balance between meeting the objectives of the DSC2 and not being too onerous, costly or time consuming.....and no prizes for the first to come back and argue the "costly" statement ;)

Does it make you a stalking ninja - no.

Does it make you better than someone with a lifetime of experience - not necessarily.

Does it mean you've demonstrated knowledge and competence - yes.

Does it mean that you can rest on your laurels - no.

Now given that the DSC2 is out there and established (4,004 completed as of today) why go and invent some new measure?

willie_gunn

It's a qualification. You either pass the test and have the qualification... or you don't. How is that different to school?... or not... "apples to apples"?

More to the point... try telling the forestry commision that it's not a qualification, once you fail to get it... :rofl:
 
Remember, this is not a 'one-off' exam! It is based on the NVQ system of assessing vocational achievement. The awarding body will require 'sufficient' evidence to support an award. That is currently 3 stalks with an AW.
Remember, it was originally only one with an AW and 2 others could be done by a Credible Witness'. This did not work and was almost the finish of the award.
There are 27 Performance Criteria to fulfill, most of which are required to be supported by questioning.
Different stalks and animals culled will create different permutations and thus allow different questions to be asked. If I witness all 3 stalks with someone, I will not ask the same question twice!
It's all about quantity of valid, reliable evidence.
MS

PS. If there was no need for the award, it would not exist!!!!!!:rolleyes:
 
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There is an option missed from the top and that is 'none of the above'

DSC2 is so hit and miss that it is expensive, prohibitive and time consuming. It actually turns the clock back 40 year on stalking... it used to be an elitist pastime, reserved for those with land, deep pockets or vast amounts of spare time (either due to retirement or having minions to run one's business affairs) or all three... then, it became a pastime, albeit not necessarily a cheap pastime, that was opened up to 'normal folk' too.

Because it was more accessible it became more popular and as it became more popular it became more lucrative and money making opportunities began to appear. Now though, with the current drive towards everyone having DSC2, it is once again becoming accessible only to those with land, deep pockets or vast amounts of spare time... or all three!

Now.. I am all for proving competence, I work in an industry where one has to continually prove competence with regular testing and examination along with 'continuing professional development.' The competence of those running round the PUBLIC countryside in open areas with a high powered rifle is very much something that should be tested... blimey, even the Police and Armed Forces can't do that so don't play down just how much responsibility we carry!

DSC1 is great, a bit like passing a driving test, it gives a basic grounding and equips the stalker with enough knowledge to go out and *begin* his journey but DSC 2 is far too onerous, not in what it sets out to prove but how it does it, in particular the fact that most of the time one is just damned lucky to get a deer, an AW and a shot off in the same place at the same time! Take my situation, 4 hour drive to my forestry permission, cost of AW plus his fuel to get there too, 1 in 4 chance of seeing a cull beast and then a further 1 in 4 chance of being able to safely shoot said deer.... the odds are firmly stacked against the candidate, and not due to lack of ability, due to the huge flaws in the whole DSC2 process!

My idea would make it far more straightforward and a true test of ability rather than circumstance in all but one area!

Have a witnessed stalk, a real one, not a walk round a field as in DSC1. Whether that stalk is successful or not, the various elements can be signed off as to safety and competency. The examiners MUST assume that if the candidate is competent on that one occasion then there is no reason to assume he will suddenly forget everything and become incompetent on the next... after all, a good stalk and safe firearms handling CANNOT happen by accident! If a beast is shot, great, if it is not then the only thing that cannot be signed off is shot placement on the beast. As DSC2 requires at least *some* prior experience it should be safe to assume that the candidate has managed to successfully dispatch previous beasts.. that along with a further marksmanship tests should be proof enough but.. see phase 2 for additional evidence

The second phase should be allowed to be carried out on either park or farmed deer.. That way the taking of a beast is all but guaranteed and the rest of the candidates competence can be confirmed (as well as their marksmanship!) Again, there *must* be an assumption that the candidate will not suddenly forget what he has done... One is more than sufficient!
 
Just get on with it!! are you men or mice!! There is far to much b******t on this site regarding competence!

Accept thats the standard that i have to achieve over three stalks and enjoy the journey, i'm sure when you come through the other side you will be a better stalker for it.

Von
 
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The most misunderstood thing about level 2 is always to do with the cost and fairness of it. The criteria of the qualification is written down, discussed and sometimes argued about but the most important thing:

Is a candidate and their circumstances supportive for them to achieve the qualification?

- do they have the required experience
- do they have good stalking craft
- do they have ground or need to use others grounds
- do they have deer on their ground if they have ground
- can they afford the costs involved inc traveling, AW charges and other costs
- are the motivated and prepared to do what it takes regarding time and financial investments

What you will find is those that can't and don't from some of the above might not pass their level 2 in the 3 year period. That's is not necessarily because they don't deserve to but they may not be ready for the qualification and the commitment they need to put into it to pass. Big Steve is exactly that bracket of candidate. He just can't get time to go stalking and put the hours in to build his experience and cull records. So three years expired.

I spent half a day and about £300 in outing and shot fees to do the practical work of my level two on an area thick with fallow that I know very well. I spend several days before my booked day glassing for the deer right across the estate and had a solid picture of what was where and when. If you put the effort in and have the money set aside there is no problem in shooting the deer. I was out with guests at the at the end of the doe season and start of the buck season and in 3 outings we shot 4 roe.

You need experience and access to productive ground but more than that, a knowledge of the ground you are stalking so that you don't walk in blind hoping to bump into deer. It's very easy to blame a system when it doesn't work for you for reasons you don't want to admit. None of the pro's on here have a problem with the system although I'm very sure could contribute ideas to improve it in parts.
 
Just get on with it!! are you men or mice!! There is far to much b******t on this site regarding compitence!

Accept thats the standard that i have to achieve over three stalks and enjoy the journey, i'm sure when you come through the other side you will be a better stalker for it.

Von

Well said Von . . .
4004 of us have managed it, if you want the qualification knuckle down, go get it, and stop bleating about it.
Its not rocket science, and if your put your mind to it quite easily achievable.
 
I learn more from practical than theory, but today it is getting more towards certification is needed than experience. I've just qualified to via a diploma for registered manager via mental health etc did I learn anything while undergoing this no.

Four years back when I looked into doing my level one and two I weighed everything up and decided to plough what the costs were into ordinary stalks. I new only draw back would acquire inn land. I've covered probably few thousand miles around Cumbria and Lancashire requesting permissions. Either already had stalkers on or financial not viable.

I was introduced too two stalkers who taought me everything I no never minded me generally ring in asking question and alsi never minded me tagging .along helping them out undertaking there own cull.. And in this I'm so grateful and to this site too.

Me personaly I'd rather have if need someone on my land who had years experience than freshly qualified. That's no disregard to those starting out. There is to much to soon tto learn in dsc's. I'm still learning now and like to tthink I always will in this sport.
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If they introduce level 3 can guarantee level 4 etc will follow in few years to come .
Stalking with different stalkers is good practice as being solely remain to one will only teach you there ways.

I have my own theory into I like too change methods of practice and I believe this would benefit many newcomers and protect those who have been in the games for many years who may not even hold level one or two etc...
 
Why should you have to kill a deer to have a successful stalk? Do the necessary and answer the points in the questions. No deer, ok but three stalks with one kill to prove the galloched and laddering. You did the shooting test already.
 
Putting it another way:

Will there ever come a time when no one (like say, a paying foreign guest) will be allowed to shoot a deer unless they have passed a formal test first?

If not, why not?
 
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Why should you have to kill a deer to have a successful stalk? Do the necessary and answer the points in the questions. No deer, ok but three stalks with one kill to prove the galloched and laddering. You did the shooting test already.

Because an integral part of the DSC2 is about "dealing with carcasses hygienically" i.e. putting them into the human food chain. So if someone completes three successful stalks and then drags the carcase through the mire, only to sling them in the back of the vehicle all piled up with the dog on top, they will not be signed off against those performance criteria. If they do it once, great, but they still have to complete it two more times. Why is dealing with carcases hygenically any less important than successfully completing three stalks??

The full description of what's required is available here: http://www.dmq.org.uk/DSC2.htm Maybe people should read it?

willie_gunn
 
Why should you have to kill a deer to have a successful stalk? Do the necessary and answer the points in the questions. No deer, ok but three stalks with one kill to prove the galloched and laddering. You did the shooting test already.

I remember commenting to John Archer, It seemed a little sad that this particular beast had to roll over just to complete a paper chase.:(
 
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