Several questions

rdg1269

Member
I’m relatively new to stalking and a recent incident has left me pondering several questions.

Are DDM and Services Branch the same thing? Does Services Branch really exist? If so, who are they and are they governed by different rules to the rest of the deer stalking community?

Last weekend I was out walking my dog in the Pirbright area when we came across the carcass of a young Roe buck. I know that it was a buck because I checked the genetalia and when I say young, I’m guessing that it was one of this years kids because it had no antlers and was small in size, although it was in very good condition.

Whilst examining the carcass a chap appeared with a rifle over his shoulder and claimed to have just shot said animal. Whilst he proceeded to gralloch the carcass I asked him if he had seen anything wrong the animal that had led to him deciding to shoot it, thinking that it had had a bad limp or something. He replied that he had seen nothing untoward with the animal prior to taking the shot.

This is my first quandary: I was under the impression that you could not shoot an animal under the age of 6 months and only young dependant kids in the doe season and you had just shot the mother? This animal was plainly under 6 months of age.

Pressing my luck somewhat, I asked the chap if the animal had been in the company of any other animals and he said that it had been with two does, presumably its mother and sibling doe kid.

When I mentioned my concern/confusion over the age of the animal he replied that as a member of DDM on MoD land he was entitled to shoot whatever was in the cull. At this point he hoisted the carcass over his shoulder and stormed off.

Consequently, I have done some research on the internet, but I’m still not sure of my facts. What are the rules regarding shooting young animals? If my understanding is correct, are DDM (I presume that this is the fabled Defence Deer Management I keep hearing about?) allowed to operate under different rules to the rest of us?

I am a member of the BDS and I understand that DDM/Services Branch are also a part of the BDS. If this is so, then surely we are all governed by the same rules?

I am very interested to hear what the rest of you have to say. If I have got my facts wrong, then I owe an unknown gentleman an apology.
 
Welcome to the forum.

New members are encouraged to put a short post in the intorductions section on the main page mate, it helps everyone get to know a little more about each other and their experience.

Intresting sequence of events, I'll ask a friend who will certainly know more than me about MOD practice and post back.

Regards,

GH
 
As Granhubert has beaten me to it :lol:

Welcome to the forum, I sincerely hope the members can be of help to you and I am sure you will make some good friends from the site. However it is a requirement before posting that you introduce yourself to the site members and tell us a little more about yourself.

Could I politely ask that you do this in the Introduction section of the site.

Thank you

Sikamalc
 
Hi Roger,
Welcome to the site.
As a member of BDS you will have seen the quarterly magazine 'Deer'.
In there are reports from the various branches of the BDS and among them is usually a report from DDM or Services Branch.
As for all your questions, I cannot help you a great deal.
I have not heard of any law regarding Deer under six months but is always advisable to leave them as, if they are still suckling and are shot, the 'mother' may have a problem disposing of her 'milk' and develop mastitus, particularly if she only had the one kid.
Apart from that, it does seem bad form and unneccessary to shoot one so early in it's life.
I am surprised the Gentleman concerned didn't stop longer to explain what and why he was doing what he was.
I know there used to be a lot of pressure on the Stalkers to complete the
cull in that particular area because of dog walkers and Joggers using the same time frame as the Stalkers but that is more reason, when confronted by either, to explain and try and get them on their side.
 
The grumpy man you speak of, did he have an unfeasibly large furry hat by any chance? :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, you say you walked upto it and moments later the stalker appeared.

Was the deer obviously freshly shot( perhaps you could tell by evidence of clotting etc) and if so did you hear the shot?

I'm more worried about how you came into contact than the age of the cull beast.
 
Is it accepted practice?

No, the “Grumpy Man” did not have an unfeasibly large furry hat. He was of stocky build, about 5’ 6” with short greying hair and a full greying beard and spoke with a Scottish accent.

The carcass of the shot animal was warm and the blood was oozing out of the nose/mouth and the exit wound in the side of the head. On the floor around the carcass there was fresh bright red blood, so I would say that the animal had only just been shot.

However, I do not remember hearing any shot, but I had been calling the dog several minutes before finding the carcass, perhaps my calling prevented me from hearing the shot?

Would you shoot an animal that young? Is it accepted practice?
 
forget the animal in question
as it was a buck it was in season
but i would be more inquisitive about the actually surroundings in which the buck was shot
ie: just shot as you chanced upon it , so were you in danger ??
or were you legitmate to be in the area when the buck was shot
there are a lot more issuses than if you or i would shoot a buck that young
but lets not make a big issue out of it
as that stalker is paid to do a job , ethics has little to do with that from a recreational point of view
but safety has from both sides
 
Defence Deer Managers are not recreational Stalkers, they work to a clearly defined and very strict cull plan.
Before they can cull animals unaccompanied, as this man was, he will have had to have jumped through an awful lot of training hoops and been under scrutiny for at least a year so safety would not be an issue.
Most of the MOD Estates are open to the public when not Live.
Joggers and Dog walkers use the same time frame as Stalkers ie first thing in the morning and last thing at night as most Ranges are active/live during the day.
DDM stalkers are fully aware of this, so extra care is always taken to ensure no members of the public are put in danger.
I'm surprised you didn't hear the shot, if he was there in such a short space of time he must have been quite close to you.
If he had a beard he must have been a Civil Servant as DDM is only open to Serving members of the forces or civil servants.
 
I dont understand how you got to a freshly shot deer before the stalker, thats very scary, and you didnt hear the shot, even with a moderator that is hard to comprehend. The Buck was in season and there are no laws on age.

Exit wound on the side of its head??? mmm I have not headshot many deer but those that I have had slightly more than an "exit wound"
 
" I dont understand how you got to a freshly shot deer before the stalker, thats very scary, and you didnt hear the shot, even with a moderator that is hard to comprehend "

Perhaps he thought you would pass without seeing the Deer and was wary of being confrontational, as some are in that area, so stood back hoping.
Having been seen, I am surprised he was not more open with you, even showing you his ID Card as proof he was legal.
I know MOD Policy positively discourages head shots under normal circumstances in favour of the 'Engine Room' shot.
As for the shot not being heard, maybe you came upon a poacher using a .22 - hence the head shot, close range perhaps.
MOD Deer Managers usually have a Roe sack to negate having to 'sling one over the shoulder' particularly when using areas open to the public.
This incident seems very strange to me as the person concerned certainly did not portray the image that all members of DDM are expected to portray to the public.
 
buck52 said:
I dont understand how you got to a freshly shot deer before the stalker, thats very scary, and you didnt hear the shot, even with a moderator that is hard to comprehend.

I guess he shot a buck, possibly waited for a few minutes, and when he was about to go and do the gralloch, he heard a man calling his dog. He waited hoping for the man to go his way, but unfortunatelly the man found the deer. Hence, he had to show up. It all sounds quite innocent for me and lets not jump into conclussions that he did something wrong.

I would not shoot a kid at this time of year...

Regards,
Greg
 
Any shot from a deer legal cartridge with / without moderator will be heard inside a mile by anyone with average hearing, I would suspect from the described scenario, head shot with a moderated sub calibre, & a quick exit with swag on shoulder!
 
If he head shot the animal one would assume he wasn't far away? That being the case he could and should have been with the animal very quickly, it's not as though it could have run into cover or anything. He must also have been using something subsonic or you would have heard it, therefore this does indeed sound like a poaching incident...
 
It does sound from how you described it that it was probably a sub sonic round.

It may be worth, in fact it is definatley worth letting the station/garrison responsible for the land know about this incident so that it can be looked at properly.
 
Glogin
Not jumping to any conclusion, its just that it all sounds very strange, iffy if you like, and I am not suggesting anything illegal, not being there and knowing the whole story makes it hard to understand.

PS. I agree with the "subsonic" suggestions, it needs reporting, the garrison would know if anyone was officially out culling.
 
“EMcC - If he had a beard he must have been a Civil Servant as DDM is only open to Serving members of the forces or civil servants.”

EMcC, there are many guys within the military that sport beards at one time or another: RN, RM, SBS, SAS and anybody on leave. They wouldn’t be too happy to be labelled as Civil Servants just because they had a beard.

“buck52 - Exit wound on the side of its head??? mmm I have not headshot many deer but those that I have had slightly more than an "exit wound"”

buck52, an “exit wound” is an exit wound regardless of the size, would you have preferred that I called it “a gaping hole”?

For the record, I didn’t hear a shot, but then again I did have my iPod on, brushing up on my French for my holidays. The rifle, it looked like a Ruger with a Houge stock, was moderated with a T8 and had a bi-pod on it. I couldn’t tell what cal it was, but the “gaping hole” of an exit wound suggests that it was a little larger than a sub-sonic .22.

Those of you that have PM’d me, thanks. From what I have heard and read on this site, DDM seems to run as a very tight knit community (devilishdave – “The first rule of DDM is we don’t talk about DDM!!”). So, the likelihood of them burning one of their own on my say so seems pretty remote.

I just hope that the rest of DDM don’t wear spurs like “Grumpy Man”, otherwise I had better start wearing a bright orange jacket when I go any where near MOD land!!
 
Back
Top